[BrandonB]

I know this forum is focused on speakers but I also know that allot of you are knowledgable in electronics.  I was talking to an owner of a company who is also an EE about his DAC's.  He talked about the quality of the internal parts of his equipment which seemed pretty nice (Lundahl, Furutech, Vishay etc..). He also talked about having chokes in the power supply.  He said nice equipment will have chokes including DAC's Preamps, Amps etc.  In  conversations on this forum people have said they have moved into DAC's with tubes which would usually include chokes. They have said that tube DAC's just sounds more natural and have a better tone and pace.    Also I have heard that more capacitance in the power supply is better.  Danny talks a lot about the quality of capacitors in the crossovers but in the power supplies I read more about the amount of capacitance which makes sense.  Let  me know if you have experienced these as truths.

[Early B.]

Great sound quality requires high parts quality. It's no different than any other product. 

For audio, the sound is in the power. Take Class D amps, for example -- the best ones are as big as A/B amps and just as expensive due to their massive power supplies, often with chokes. Another way to look at it -- nearly every amp manufacturer's statement amps are much larger than their other offerings for the same reasons. Same with monoblocks vs. stereo amps. A third way to look at it -- audiophiles prefer separates because of better sound due mainly to their power supplies.

Most streamers have low-cost switching power supplies. I built a custom linear power supply for my streamer to get better sound.     

[HAL]

Even switch mode power supplies (SMPS) use inductors (chokes) and capacitors in the outputs for low pass filtering, just like tube amps.  The difference is the frequencies they need to filter out.

For AC power supplies they are in the 60Hz, 120Hz and harmonics frequency range in the US and 50Hz, 100Hz and harmonics in the UK.  These require large values for the inductors and capacitors, typically meaning large iron core inductors and electrolytic capacitors. 

In SMPS, the switching frequencies are in the 100KHz and higher frequencies for modern units.  The values of the required inductors and capacitors are small and typically can be better quality like low ESR capacitors and ferrite core inductors. 

If you know Gary Dodd's battery powered tube amps, he used SMPS for the tube high voltage.  That is the way to get the 12VDC battery power to 300VDC for the power tubes.   They are great sounding amps.  No one complained of noise problems. 

A lot of digital electronics also have voltage regulators after the SMPS to provide different voltages for the DAC's and control electronics, most importantly the main clock oscillator.  That prevents noise jitter in low phase noise oscillators. 

Good luck with your search.

[jmimac351]

I've used and still have top shelf tube equipment.  Chokes / caps, it's never been a consideration for me when trying something. 

Zero Negative Feedback?  Oh yes...

[BrandonB]

I've used and still have top shelf tube equipment.  Chokes / caps, it's never been a consideration for me when trying something. 

Zero Negative Feedback?  Oh yes...

I do see much of the nicer gear with zero negative feedback.  The new Spatial Audio revelation raven preamp has no Caps in the signal path and is zero feedback.  I know Ayre equipment has zero feedback also. 

[stylerb]

pretty sure all gear employs some degree of feedback. it might have "zero overall" but that doesnt mean zero anywhere.

[mkrawcz]

The First watt M2(and Diyaudiostore M2X) has NO feedback as stated by Nelson Pass and it sounds amazing.

[Jaytor]

The First watt M2(and Diyaudiostore M2X) has NO feedback as stated by Nelson Pass and it sounds amazing.

Actually, the source resistors on the output Mosfets do provide some local negative feedback. There is, however, no global negative feedback.

[stylerb]

every device has some type of feedback. its impossible not to. it is possible to use semantics to get around the issue but really saying there is no feedback is a marketing statement. not going to argue with Nelson, i greatly respect him, but everything has feedback whether its called feedback is another story.

[jmimac351]

every device has some type of feedback. its impossible not to. it is possible to use semantics to get around the issue but really saying there is no feedback is a marketing statement. not going to argue with Nelson, i greatly respect him, but everything has feedback whether its called feedback is another story.

Semantics. Context.

[stylerb]

feedback per se is not a bad thing. designing a product is a series of goals and compromises and theres no one best way to do things. theres a good thread on diyaudio that bob cordell, nelson pass and john curl have contributed heavily to, interesting read but also a lot of math.

[jmimac351]

feedback per se is not a bad thing. designing a product is a series of goals and compromises and theres no one best way to do things. theres a good thread on diyaudio that bob cordell, nelson pass and john curl have contributed heavily to, interesting read but also a lot of math.

Have you ever heard amps / equipment designed this way - as a system?  I am living with it.  When the fact that the original designer (Charles Hansen) was also a "tube guy" who wanted the magic of tubes and the "no fuss" of solid state, it might make one take notice. (I did) 

When you hear speakers from a designer (Danny Richie) who mentions "smearing" "phase" and "timing issues", repeatedly, it might make one take notice. (I did)

Then... when you discover that the focus from the amp / equipment designer was also focused on TIMING issues... you start going down the path of synergy... and "connecting the dots of what is important".

It appears to me, the designers of my speakers (Danny Richie), and all of my gear (Ariel Brown), both think Timing Issues are critical.

And then you hear it, it's visceral, and you know.  And since I am really smart, I connected those 2 dots and added 1 + 1 and got my answer... and you "stop searching for gear because, as much as you tell yourself otherwise, there's just something not quite right".

"John Curl and "what can't be done" without Feedback..."

Charles Hansen at Ayre was friends with John.  I've seen the stuff on the DIY Forum.  There are some designers, (Danny Richie included) who want to share their secrets enough to educate why one way is better than another.  Ariel Brown at Ayre has been designing their stuff for the last 15-20 years or so.  As for "no one best way to do things"... well, my ears tell me some ways are definitely better than others.

About for what is possible, or not:

Have you heard the story when Charlie called John Curl to brag to John about what he and Ariel did to reach a super low distortion figure without feedback, which John said was impossible.  The video below talks about Feedback and the "Why?". 

I share this because Brandon seams to be looking for what / why to buy from a difference / design standpoint.  After experiencing it in a number of pieces of gear, tube and solid state, many of which I still own... this Feedback issue is, for me, the #1AAA cornerstone for "the magic".  Show me an amplifier with high output impedance, like the First Watt M2 mentioned, and I want to hear it.

It seems to me, doing homework on the design goals, goals that are more than just flowery prose and actually explain the tangible benefit, is important when trying to find the right gear.  I've found what make me happy.  I'd encourage others to do the same... find tangible differences in gear for why something is different / better than something else... connect the dots, and Listen.  It is an interesting psychological exercise for how people choose gear, unfortunately, I sense it's often herd mentality.  And then it shows up on the used market....

Enjoy and be sure to rewind further back once they stop talking about beer.  Ariel is at the bottom and is a humble genius.  The other 2 guys are no longer there.  I hope at least it's food for thought for some... it's been a revelation for me. 

https://youtu.be/Y33BcwX5jGE?si=MatWl_-b0PiFtK_F&t=1913

[stylerb]

i have the Ayre AX5 Twenty as my amp. nice gear.

im just saying that everything has some type of feedback.

this is a fun read: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-9040#post-17911208

[Glady86]

I guess this is related to the topic. I used Miflex capacitors in my high pass filter. I didn’t think much of break in, but something’s definitely going on. A couple recordings that Ive played and know well sounded a little off, edgy and cold. Yesterday I played again and it was the best I ever heard them. Do these capacitors change in character that quickly? Probably about 60 hours on them.

And no I wasn’t drinking, to those who might not believe.

[bardamu]

Hello, I think it is important to look for the right capacitor in the right place. I my high pass filter ( 600 hertz and up) . I tried a few including some '' audiophile brands '' but the best one for me where some Philips paper( in oil?) caps from the sixties bought in a surplus sture for a $ a piece. Greetings, Eduard
P.s yes the bigger CSI caps ( 5 or 6 KV) took several days before giving a decent sound. The Philips took a few hours and kept improving the first days. If i remember right i got more detail.

[Glady86]

I always thought all those big cans were electrolytic types. It’s cool you found a cheap alternative to the expensive fancy ones.

[bardamu]

Hello,
I know the biggest ( CSI) cap is a brand that also made lots of special foil caps.  BUT they also made caps that are not made to be used with DC voltage applied for a long time. They are made for special equipment and can only be used in a special way. SO you have to know what you are buying. Right now there is a set of transformers for sale online and advertised as being perfect for a tube amp. But on the transformer it is clearly indicated '' duty cycle 5 minutes on 10 minutes off or transformers made to be used between 400 and 1100 CPS/Hertz.
The dark grey GE( dielektrol) caps contain some kind of oil and they works really well.Usually if it says no pcb there will be a less dangerous oil inside.
As you can see in the photo i had my share of audiophile caps  But many times i have had older caps that sounded a lot better.
Of course you could say progres will allow manufacturers to make better products. But most of them are not interested to make a product that would make them feel proud. Kind greetings, eduard