[Early B.]

In looking at recent audio prices, even the price of used gear seems exorbitantly high. But is this really true -- have prices gone insane or is it a result of inflation or both? Let's start with facts. Let's assume we agree that 20 years ago, if you had $1,000, you could buy an awesome amp or a nice pair of bookshelf speakers.

A quick google search shows that $1,000 in 2004 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $1,665 today. The dollar had an average inflation rate of 2.58% per year between 2004 and today. This means that today's prices are 1.67 times as high as average prices since 2004, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index.   

OK, so now the question is -- can $1,665 buy the same quality of gear as $1,000 twenty years ago?

I have no way of confirming this, but I'm guessing that retail prices have generally surged higher than inflation over the past 20 years, but used prices have been trending along with inflation. And it depends on the component type. You can still find a decent SS amp for a reasonable price, but tubes have gotten ridiculously high. The premium 300B tubes start at $1,500/pair.    

Any thoughts ???

[FullRangeMan]

Interesting topic

[Norman Tracy]

Early B my answer is yes certainly high end audio prices are out of control. But, BIG BUT, it is an amazing time best ever to be an entry level audiophile.

With the economy for the past few decades minting 1,000s of new million and billionaires the upper limits of boutique HiFi gear pricing has been constantly tested and reset upward. Lost or overshadowed is the fact technology especially Moore's Law (the observation that the number of transistors in an integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years) and software offer amazing capabilities at the entry level.

For example to your question can $1,665 buy the same quality of gear as $1,000 twenty years ago? I answer no, it buys capabilities barely dreamed of in 2004. Here is an example of such a Moore's Law turbocharged system.

Built GR Research XLS-S Encore https://gr-research.com/product/xls-encore/, with base poly caps and connectors in oak veneer $1260/pair.

Add WiiM Amp at $299 https://www.amazon.com/WiiM-Amp-Multiroom-Streaming-Chromecast/dp/B0CGCLXH4H?th=1 and system total is $1559 for a 60wpc system with inputs including HDMI Arc, Optical, analog Line AND Network - IEEE 802.11 b/g/n/ac Dual band Wi-Fi, 10/100 Mbps LAN; Bluetooth - BT 5.1, A2DP Sink and Source, AVRCP, BLE HID. Free app controls it all from our pocket computers (aka Smart Phones). The typical college student or someone on a very limited budget who can pull together $1500-$2000 for a HiFi has a phone and internet access. Take this system and a free Spotify (yes lossy, but remember we're on a strict budget here) and for $1559 I have a kicking system with access to something like 4 million songs at the touch of a screen.

[SteveFord]

I would say yes.
A lot of the manufacturers are focusing on wealthy buyers in Asia and the Middle East.
There's some wealthy audiophiles in the US as well, of course.

Small volume, high prices.

[Early B.]

Early B my answer is yes certainly high end audio prices are out of control. But, BIG BUT, it is an amazing time best ever to be an entry level audiophile.

With the economy for the past few decades minting 1,000s of new million and billionaires the upper limits of boutique HiFi gear pricing has been constantly tested and reset upward. Lost or overshadowed is the fact technology especially Moore's Law (the observation that the number of transistors in an integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years) and software offer amazing capabilities at the entry level.

For example to your question can $1,665 buy the same quality of gear as $1,000 twenty years ago? I answer no, it buys capabilities barely dreamed of in 2004. Here is an example of such a Moore's Law turbocharged system.

Built GR Research XLS-S Encore https://gr-research.com/product/xls-encore/, with base poly caps and connectors in oak veneer $1260/pair.

Add WiiM Amp at $299 https://www.amazon.com/WiiM-Amp-Multiroom-Streaming-Chromecast/dp/B0CGCLXH4H?th=1 and system total is $1559 for a 60wpc system with inputs including HDMI Arc, Optical, analog Line AND Network - IEEE 802.11 b/g/n/ac Dual band Wi-Fi, 10/100 Mbps LAN; Bluetooth - BT 5.1, A2DP Sink and Source, AVRCP, BLE HID. Free app controls it all from our pocket computers (aka Smart Phones). The typical college student or someone on a very limited budget who can pull together $1500-$2000 for a HiFi has a phone and internet access. Take this system and a free Spotify (yes lossy, but remember we're on a strict budget here) and for $1559 I have a kicking system with access to something like 4 million songs at the touch of a screen.

Good points about technology, but a WiiM isn't high-end audio and this system will sound like crap! Twenty years ago we probably could have built an equally crappy-sounding system for $1K.

[newzooreview]

The WiiM Amp sounds much better than any system I had from high school through grad school. It in no way is "crappy sounding" in a medium-sized room at regular loudness (in the 80dB range). I was using it with the Sierra Acoustics  Sierra LX bookshelf speakers.

Of course, more money can buy even better sound, but I think we have higher value choices now than we have had in the past.

Regarding the high end audio prices, it's all of the above. Costs for parts, labor, shipping, packaging, advertising, business insurance, and so on are likely higher, and demand is sufficient to sustain the prices asked, or the companies will fold or lower prices. Of course, government spending has deflated the value of the dollar in the last four years, so we have higher costs across the board. Macro economics hasn't really changed much in the last century in that regard.

[Tyson]

You can have a great sounding system using inexpensive gear from Schiit audio.  Then some DIY speakers and you are set.

I think the real paradigm shift in the modern world is there are so many reviewers and hobbyists with access to measurement tools that give us a much better peak under the hood than we ever got in the past with the print magazines.

That alone makes audio cheaper because it helps you avoid buying underperforming gear that you angrily sell at a loss.

[mix4fix]

Somebody show me in what universe a pair of $27K bookshelf speakers are worth it.

There was a pair at an audio show.

[newzooreview]

If the total system budget is $100k, then someone with knowledge and experience can certainly put together a system that sounds better than a $50k system.

In the context of that well-matched $100k system, the $27k speakers could very well have a place.

It's just a question of what sound you are looking for and what budget is comfortable. I am assuming that we are talking about purchasing decisions not made on the basis of perceived status or aesthetics. If those are significant factors for someone, then the higher priced options can make sense for them. Even if I shake my head or raise an eyebrow, to each his own, in the end.

[djbnh]

Tough question to answer, and I'll take a stab regarding our personal journey / situation. It may, or may not, be applicable to others.

Through our entire audio journey, we've tried to: balance wants vs. needs, get "good value" for each of our heavily researched purchases, understand and accept what the purchase added to our overall listening pleasure, etc.

We're savers - what you can save can impact what you can buy / pay. Early on I've been a great cook so we rarely went out to eat, esp. with two kids and a mortgage. We were home bodies and home entertainment fans, so we didn't go out much and didn't hit bars, which helped with amassing savings. We ran our cars into the ground / held them for about 15 years each, and banked the car payments into savings when the cars were paid off. We applied extra $ to the mortgage principal each month to help pay down the mortgage quicker (there were months and years we did without little extras so that we could keep doing this), and did as much as we could ourselves for home improvements / repairs. We always paid our credit cards off each month. When the kids left the house / the house was paid off, we had more disposable income and could raise the limits on what we were willing to pay. NOTE: One thing we did 20 years ago was have two dedicated 20A lines run to our music room; if we tried to do that today, the cost would be much greater.

We've found some 1) great products at what seem to be reasonable costs (esp. when compared to what some other gear costs), and 2) for which we stretched. YMMV

Ex: reasonable cost:

• Dipped our toes into audio with Klaus Bunge of Odyssey, tremendous bang for buck and can't say enough great things about that man and his operation. Wish there were more like him. Big shout out to Klaus, uber alles! LOL We had his gear for many years and easily could have stopped there.
• Got into vinyl initially buying a used Rega P25, and a Denon DL103R. Had an OLD NAD preamp from my 1st Iraq army days that I used as a phono preamp.
• Qualio IQ speakers we purchased the other year have been the best audio investment, sound and wallet-wise, for what the product brings to our ears.
• a lightly used McIntosh MAC7200 receiver purchased a couple years ago at $2.5K less than retail - the tuner, preamp, MC phono stages, and amp sections are all highly satisfactory; when McIntosh last year increased the unit's cost by $1,000, we had an even better bargain. Not to mention we didn't need interconnects for preamp/amp/tuner/phono stage.
• NuPrime CDT-10 transport, bought through forum Industry member John Casler. John helped us with the purchase, and the unit punches well above its price point in our opinion.
• Tubulus Concentus I2S cable - at first glance this cable looks pricey. However, when compared to some high end AES cables and their price/performance, the Concentus comes out a strong winner for us.

Ex: higher cost and stellar performance:

• Mola Mola Tambaqui. This DAC is superb, and should be at it's price point. We previously had a Denafrips Pontus II, which was fun but nowhere in the same league as the Tambaqui. Again, a pricey DAC and superb. There are much more expensive DACs, we feel no need to move off what we have now.
• Pure Fidelity Harmony Turntable and Conductor Speed Controller, with an Origin Live Illustrious tonearm and Hana Umami Red MC cartridge that replaced our Rega / Denon rig after almost 22 years. We saved for this combo and love it. The Rega was nice, and what replaced it is blissful. Again, there are much more expensive pieces of vinyl kit, what we've assembled probably gets us 98.5-99%% of the way there, and we feel no need for us to grasp for the last 1-1.5%.

I've seen great growth in audio performance over the decades, and sometimes accompanied by great costs. To circle back to the Qualio IQ speakers, it's phenomenal what these speakers can do and at their price point, I think the pair ran us EUR5,200 including shipping from Poland to NH. So the Qualio group, as well as some other manufacturers, still provide a high end product at a reasonable price. We know that "reasonable" for some is "insane" for others. There's context that shapes opinions as well as purchases, and lifestyle plus other saving /spending choices that help shape what persons and households can do. Everyone has a budget, and we believe it's prudent to live within your means.

[Early B.]

Through our entire audio journey, we've tried to: balance wants vs. needs, get "good value" for each of our heavily researched purchases, understand and accept what the purchase added to our overall listening pleasure, etc.

Yeah, when I started my audio journey, my budget was $500 for each component, $100 for interconnects, and $50 for power cords. Over the years, I've used the proceeds from selling gear to buy the next piece and added some cash on top of it. After twenty years of playing leapfrog by upgrading, I can buy far more expensive gear than my current income affords. Fortunately, I've arrived at the point where upgrading is no longer financially feasible, so I'm chilling with what I have. For instance, I'd love to try higher-end gear than what I own, but the DAC I want is about $15K used. It's ridiculous!

Perhaps some gear such as amps under $1K or $2K are a better bargain with better sound today than 20 years ago, but the more expensive gear has probably doubled or tripled in price.  Good luck finding decent floorstanding speakers under $5K today.
 

[FullRangeMan]

Happen that the US audiophile arenot used to buying overseas, they only know how to buy in US, they buy anything made in usa. In the loudspeaker case they buy anything that look good, fancy wood veneer sells fast, the sound quality not important.

There is a $5000usd/pair speaker that use cheap steel frame + Ferrite magnets woofers and sells alot. So the solution is buy in China, Russia, EU but the guys dont want bother.

[Early B.]

Happen that the US audiophile are not used to buying overseas, they only know how to buy in US, they buy anything made in usa.

As Americans, we know that 95% of audio gear is made in China, even if it has an American label. If a company claims their gear is "made in America," that usually means it was partially assembled here, but most of the parts were made in China, Mexico, or elsewhere. There are outliers like Schiit who provide reasonably priced products and intentionally seek out local suppliers, but the vast majority of American companies don't do that because it isn't cost-effective.

[FullRangeMan]

As Americans, we know that 95% of audio gear is made in China, even if it has an American label. If a company claims their gear is "made in America," that usually means it was partially assembled here, but most of the parts were made in China, Mexico, or elsewhere. There are outliers like Schiit who provide reasonably priced products and intentionally seek out local suppliers, but the vast majority of American companies don't do that because it isn't cost-effective.

Many military ICs are made in China. A guitar expert told me Fender made in Usa guitars are made in Usa by green card workers from others countries.

[BrandonB]

I have noticed that some used equipment  selling for almost or the same price it was purchased for.  This is because the model may not have changed and inflation has caused the new model to significantly increase in price. 

[toocool4]

Yes prices have gone up a lot over time, because we have been conditioned to seeing these prices all the time; we now see it as normal. The manufacturers will keep asking what they know the market will pay, that is the name of the game.

A friend and I was talking about a stand mount speaker the other day, the price was just over £10000 for the speaker and stands. We both agreed it was a reasonable price for the speakers, years ago we would have thought that was a lot for the speakers.

In general, we are all numb to seeing these prices, that everything now looks reasonable to us all at whatever price.

[BobM]

I've always been of the mindset that buying something that's 10 years old, and that was state of the art back then, is a bargain at about half what it originally cost, and at about 25% the cost of comperable new equipment right now. Would you be ashamed at owning something that's 10 years old and sounds phenominal? If "yes" then I hope you have deep pockets ... but I have deep ears and 10 year old equipment is still true high end audiophile equipment.

[djbnh]

Was reading a review of the Mola Mola Lupe Phono preamplifier, and the following caught my attention:

At a retail price just shy of £7,500 Mola Mola’s Lupe phono stage can hardly be characterised as entry level, but neither can it be classified as overly expensive if we consider the broader market. At the risk of losing readers struggling to square the sometimes quite ridiculous cost of our audiophile obsession I’m going to call the Lupe mid-price.

Why that matters is because cost is one thing but sometimes value is quite another. Mola Mola has form for producing products that deliver sonics considerably better than their price points might suggest. The Tambaqui DAC is one example that gives little-to-nothing away to alternatives costing up to twice as much. Other reviewers tell me the company’s amplifiers similarly sound better than we might expect for the money. Now the phono stage from the same stable is available we can observe the pattern all over again. It too sounds superior when compared to some significantly more expensive alternatives. Coincidence? I think not.

from https://the-ear.net/review-hardware/mola-mola-lupe-irresistible-vinyl-amp/

I thought the reviewer helped partially distill one way to view the topic "Are High End Audio Prices Out of Control???" There are audio products that more reasonably deliver the audio goods at prices considerably less than other competing / slightly superior, alternatives. That being said, one person's "more reasonably" is another person's "You've got to be fv@k!ng kidding me!!". Put another way, some persons are ok with a 1.25ct lab diamond with a small inclusion, while others will accept the same thing but it needs to be a natural diamond, and still others want nothing but natural perfection and are willing to pay for it.

[BobM]

Here's a funny thought. Do you remember when you were off to college trying to fit your speakers, receiver, turntable, records, etc. into the car and then working with your roommate to set it up in your small dorm room?

Todays college kids only need their smartphone, a subscription to a streaming service and some earbuds. The real "Audiophile" in the dorm probably has a single Bluetooth speaker on their desktop, or at best a pair of 5" speakers plugged into their laptop.

[mix4fix]

In the context of that well-matched $100k system, the $27k speakers could very well have a place.

$27K is "flagship" level of tower speakers from a handful of quality brands.

At the end of the day, those are just overpriced bookshelf speakers.