[VinceT]

Like many, I wish I could have a SoTA system. I found myself doing the used market and typically can find good gear that maybe was really really good 10-15 years ago. Still decent today but many have moved on from this gear and upgraded.

For example my speakers are GR/AV123 LS9s. I started the hobby with vintage ADS speakers and moved up to GR Encores, Fritz carreras and now LS9s. I use an old Audible illusions 3a preamp. Belles 150 v2 amp.

I am looking to upgrade my amp and pre really soon. Looking at amps like Parasound, Son of Ampzilla ii.  Modwright kwi 200, Odyssey, AVA, Mccormack etc. (Not sure about class D) Gear probably in that 1500-2500 range. Lot and lots of preamps out there in that 1-1500 range.

I am sure there are many like me who have went down a similar path when building a system or even used TOTL gear 10+ years ago that could recommed products that would be more affordable in the used market.

Any suggestions for SS amps and tube/SS pre amps that still sound really good that compete with today's products, that is a good bang for the buck cheap and cheerfully available in the used market?

[Bob2]

I purchased a new tube pre amp for my system 3 years ago. A year later I replaced it with a used Audio Research LS 26. Far better sound and much better soundstage from the LS26.
Options like different gain settings, balanced and SE input and output, resettable hour meter for the tubes and a remote control. Also, many other options available for the remote to control.

Nicely compliments my Odessey Stratos with all of the upgrades.  Used gear can be a great option and bring better sound and reasonable prices.

[FullRangeMan]

I would suggest any 6SN7 pre-amp, great tube, very linear, big tone sound.
I dont like 6922/6DJ8 but if you like there is the Decware CSP3 pre-amp.
For ancient DHT tubes see Glow in the Dark site.
http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/amps.html

[VinceT]

As far as pre amps, the AI i have has great bloom, but very slow and soft and lack dynamics. Need to find a tube pre that is still fast and dynamic if possible within my budget.

[FullRangeMan]

Usually OTL pre-amps are very fast.

[VinceT]

Any input on amps would be appreciated

[Letitroll98]

Unfortunately none of this very valuable and interesting discussion is even close to C&C guidelines which are $1,000 for the complete system.  When I took over facilitating this circle I made a promise to JohnR that the guidelines would never be changed.  This post has me thinking that perhaps these many years later since Mariuz founded the circle posted the limits on what C&C is might be reexamined.  Maybe we can have a mini discussion under the radar as to what members think.  This of course very short lived before I move this interesting discussion to solid state.

[FullRangeMan]

Any input on amps would be appreciated

If you live in a cold area you can look tube SET amps otherwise see Class D or better GanFet amps.

[charmerci]

With the last few years of inflation (love those inflation calculators), perhaps it's time to bump up the limit a tiny bit.

[VinceT]

I think budget wise, amp 2500, pre amp 1500. I may forgo the phono preamp altogether and get go back to MM carts for the turntable and just stick with a good pre amp also would consider SS preamps or integrateds. This go around looking for dynamics versus bloom. All the tube amps/preamps I tried had been a little too slow and soft, granted i probably have not optimized tubes in my system yet and used products that have both dynamics and tube bloom.  Not sure about class D just yet. Seen some good deals on Wyred for sound class D monos, overall still looking at higher powered AB amps. I have not had a chance to listen to these amps and pre amps like many of you have, so I really appreciate the input.

[Photon46]

Personally, I'd be very careful vetting the repair potential of any amp/preamp 10-15 years old I was interested in. I've seen more than one amp or preamp turn into expensive detritus after finding that repair parts are unobtanium. The problem has only gotten worse in these post pandemic days. So many boutique builders of audio gear are getting old and the support for their products goes bye-bye when they retire or die. That may not be a problem though, it depends on the way a given piece of gear is built. When my DeHavilland UltraVerve III preamp needed repair, it was no problem for a local audio repair shop to do so. It probably helped that it had "the build quality of a '57 Chevy" according the designer Kara Chafee 😄. I'd give strong preference to brands like Pass Labs that have strong reputations for product support. You could find a used Int-25 for just around the upper limit your budget and get an amp that combines both reliability and the classic Pass Labs signature sound (Solid state that sounds like tubes according to Nelson Pass.) The class D amps I've had that used IcePower modules have been reliable. However, they may not tickle your fancy if you want a lot of "tubey" bloom. My PS Audio M1200 monos sound can be tuned somewhat by changing the input tubes and something like CBS or Mullard 12au7s will definitely shift the sound towards more bloom. PS Audio's customer service/repair support has been first class on the BHK products I've previously owned.

[Tyson]

Another vote for Pass Labs.

[BobM]

I love the way you think. Buying a great piece of equipment that is 10 years old means you are still getting a great piece of equipment at a discount price instead of spending stupid money for something slightly better that is new. Remember, great stuff sold for $10-20K  ten years ago. New stuff at the same level is much higher now, and those old pieces are probably selling for 25 cents on the dollar these days. There's always a deal somewhere on something tht is "old" and as long as it is in great condition you will do fine.

IMO starting with the speakers you then have to find the right ampo to drive them with the sound you want. Then the preamp needs to work with the amp, tonally as well as electrically. Then the front end - just get the best you can afford there. I know, many people will say to look the other way around, and that's valid too. The best part is that if something really isn't to your liking you can probably sell it with no loss.

[Early B.]

Unfortunately none of this very valuable and interesting discussion is even close to C&C guidelines which are $1,000 for the complete system.  When I took over facilitating this circle I made a promise to JohnR that the guidelines would never be changed.  This post has me thinking that perhaps these many years later since Mariuz founded the circle posted the limits on what C&C is might be reexamined.  Maybe we can have a mini discussion under the radar as to what members think.  This of course very short lived before I move this interesting discussion to solid state.

The Cheap & Cheerful HiFi section should keep up with inflation. Not sure when the $1,000 was established for a complete system, but the pricing of audio gear has doubled in the past few years. AC is for audiophiles and audiophile gear ain't cheap. Today, I'm guessing the cheapest audiophile system you can get on the used market or DIY (integrated amp, speakers, source, and cables) is $2,500. Geez -- the shipping alone on these items could be a few hundred bucks!! I'm not referring to vintage gear from the 70's sold on ebay. I'm thinking of gear since the year 2000. Back in 2000, you could buy a nice pair of used monitors for $500. Today, those same monitors would cost $1,500.

If you set the bar too low (like it is now), then we're no longer talking about high fidelity which is the intent of this circle. Many of us have good reasons to set up a cheap system (garage setup, office, bedroom, children, etc.), but a budget of $1,000 for a complete system will sound like crap. If sound quality doesn't matter for C&C, then disregard my comments.

   

[Bob2]

"The Cheap & Cheerful section should keep up with inflation."

+1

[VinceT]

My apologies, want aware of the price limit in this section.

Not sure where else to discuss this topic

[mix4fix]

Maybe a second tier system at $2000? Or a third tier at $3000? Better components, bigger components, more components, etc.

I would limit at $3000

[mix4fix]

Maybe a second tier system at $2000? Or a third tier at $3000? Better components, bigger components, more components, etc.

I would limit at $3000

"Budgeted & Bangin' "

"Discounted & Delightful"

[nlitworld]

Keeping up with inflation is  definitely relevant, but keeping with the spirit of this circle is really the point at hand. In the initial recommendations for a c&c system, it was very centered around the mid-fi market of very budget conscious systems. The $400 pc system would only be $600 kit today, and the $1000 total system cost would only be $1500 today. That would still really favor your entry level components; lots of Schiit, Topping, etc but a price tag you could recommend to a friend just getting into the hobby. If you pick your parts right you can certainly have a fun little system for a true C&C price tag. Keeping with the spirit of acceptable compromise and cost effective is more fun for me to read about than the newest 300B amp or Sennheiser headphone. Just my $0.02.
-Lloyd

[WGH]

Many of my friends would not think a $1000 system to be Cheap and Cheerful, it would be an extravagance.

This is the go-to circle when looking for components to recommend for the other 99% of the population.