[Don_S]

My neighbor just bought a Toyota RAV4 plug-in hybrid. Awesome dark blue metallic looks great with the black trim, black wheels, and tinted windows. I like the look much better than models with contrasting paint. My neighbor let me drive it around a few blocks. I fell in love with the car. That was until he opened the hood.  There was barely room for an ant to crawl around.

I understand hybrids still require oil and coolant changes. They also have a transmission and drive train for the gasoline engine. If I have to still deal with all that I don't want or need a hybrid. I do not drive much any more and no long distances so an all electric would work for me and I prefer the more simple design. Unfortunately Toyota does not make an all electric RAV4 (yet). FYI, I have a 2004 Highlander with less than 50,000 miles so I do not need another car yet but when I do I want another SUV. I am tired of dealing with all the fluid requirements so all-electric is enticing.

I do not understand how the electric motors are connected and operate. Are they simply variable speed connected directly to the wheels? That makes sense but I do not understand how that meshes with the gasoline powered part of a hybrid and how they trade off.

[WGH]

My best friend has a Toyota Prius Prime Plug-in Hybrid, it is a very nice car, I call it a spaceship because of the smooth quiet ride like it never touches the road. Yes, it's poky but it gets us where we want to go.

The Prius Prime uses the both the electric and gas engine when we go up from 2500' elevation to the top of Mt. Lemmon at 9000' for bird watching. The battery is recharged to 100% on the way down with 90 mpg on the dash readout. The round trip from Tucson, AZ to Bisbee, AZ is 200 miles and we never have to stop for gas or charge the battery, MPG is again very high. The trade-off between electric and gas operation is seamless although there is a little noticeable engine noise only because all electric is so quiet.

The Prius Prime uses so little gas that it has a stale gas warning system to let you know to use up the old gas and add new fresh gas.

A couple months ago my friend went in for the last free service at the end of the 3 year new car warranty. While waiting in the dealer's new car showroom, a salesman came over to chat and told her that if she wanted to trade in her 3 year old Prius for a 2024 model they would give her exactly what she paid for it as a trade-in value.

[Phil A]

There's some info here which might be helpful (on the right you can hit 'all electric' or 'hybrid electric' to see differences) - https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars-work#:~:text=PHEV%20batteries%20can%20be%20charged,over%20to%20use%20the%20ICE.

The problems I have with all electric is the lack of sufficient infrastructure (e.g. https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars-work#:~:text=PHEV%20batteries%20can%20be%20charged,over%20to%20use%20the%20ICE.) and no one ever talks about where the electric comes from (e.g. coal  -   https://www.statista.com/statistics/528603/distribution-electricity-net-generation-in-the-us-by-fuel-type/)

My current vehicle (2023 Lexus RX350h) and prior vehicle were hybrids which don't plug in.  I have about 6,000 miles on the current vehicle and per the usuage history it has been fluctuating between getting 37.2 and 37.3 mpg.  I took it on a trip just before Memorial Day and didn't have to worry about where to find charging.  I don't do tons of driving. I have the vehicle about 8 months and a significant portion of that 6,000 miles (just back and forth to the destination was over 1,200 miles without the driving I did at the destination so it was at least 1,400-1,500 miles if not more).

The vehicle has every feature I could ever want.  That includes the Mark Levinson audio system.  I have 20,000+ songs all CD quality or higher on three thumb drives which I could swap in depending on what I feel like listening to.

[DaveC113]

Plug in Hybrid is the best system right now by far for most users.

It doesn't have massive batteries, but they are generally enough to do local trips w/o using any gas, but they have a gas motor for longer trips. The battery allows for regen braking and excellent fuel economy.

I really like the Prius Prime. I'm very tempted to buy one. Love my '16 M235xi too though. 

[WGH]

I really like the Prius Prime. I'm very tempted to buy one.

3 years ago my friend took advantage of the Federal Tax Credit which was either $3500 or $7500. Buying a hybrid at that time was a no-brainer. I am retired and don't pay that much in taxes so couldn't take advantage of the tax credit.

On August 16, 2022, the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act meant that more electric and hybrid vehicles would be once again eligible for a federal tax credit. While this is good news overall, new eligibility requirements mean that a lot of vehicles no longer meet the criteria for the tax credit—and one of those vehicles is the Toyota Prius Prime, which is assembled in Japan.

In order to qualify for the full $7,500 federal EV tax credit, the EV you purchase has to be brand new and assembled in North America. The Prius Prime along with the RAV4 Hybrid are assembled elsewhere.

[mcgsxr]

I was looking at a used Lexus UX recently - that is a hybrid that you just drive normally and get better gas mileage - no it won't run on pure electric or anything like that - you just put gas in, and drive it normally and it delivers good mileage (especially around town where the electric motor does more work).

In the case of the Lexus, the electric motor is connected only to the rear wheels - so when driving in normal conditions it functions as a purely gas FWD.  Once the computer brain detects that electric power would be useful, it kicks on and then is AWD.

Did not buy it, but would consider it as the easiest way into a hybrid - for me personally, if I am plugging the car in, I would want an actual EV like the Ford Mach E or something.

I do think Toyota brings a true EV to north america this coming year - but don't expect their first effort to be competitive with the best EV's just yet (thinking range).

[TomS]

PHEV's negate one of the most significant benefits of all electric, which is maintenance of the ICE. I have a good friend who is 3+ years into his Tesla Model 3 ownership. He drives a lot of miles for work and his maintenance cost was essentially zero other than tires.

We had a Lexus RX450h hybrid (not PHEV though) and while it got decent mileage for an SUV, the transition from battery to engine at every stoplight was not so seamless. I also hate the start/stop "feature" on new cars, so perhaps it's just my own pet peeve that kept me from loving that car.

[dburna]

Our 2022 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid has about 10k miles on it right now. Getting around 43-45mpg according to the dash. I think that's because neither my wife or I are very aggressive drivers. Very happy so far with the mileage.....and don't have to worry about the non-existent US battery charging infrastructure.

However, the issues we had with the !@#@@#%^ 2nd fob "program" -- we got the bait-&-switch and had only one key for this car for 10 months -- were beyond maddening. Toyota couldn't have done much more to botch this issue if they had a designated team assigned solely to screw this up. This soured us on making a Toyota purchase again. Not sure that will ever happen. Nice car, though.

-dGB

P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.

[DaveC113]

P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.

I agree, although some folks may have the good fortune to be able to charge at home and never use the spotty charging infrastructure. Even so, they and the planet would be better off with a plug-in hybrid because pure EVs have so much battery and motor the environmental impacts are huge and it takes a lot of time to recoup all that investment. With a car like the Hummer EV that may never even happen, it's probably worse than most ICE vehicles.

This is Toyota's position the issue, and it's why they offer hybrids. I agree with them. Most other companies and people seem overly enthusiastic and very emotional about EVs, they are the guilt-free luxury vehicles to have because of that. It's all BS though, lol. Your Tesla with a 300+ mile range and 0-60 <4s, 2.5 ton conveyance isn't saving the world.

[artur9]

I went from a diesel VW (600mi/tank) to
a Nissan Leaf to
a BMW i3 Rex
now to a Mini PHEV.

The Leaf worked because I had a charger at work and the round trip was <30mi.  Can't imagine traveling farther in it than that without worrying.

The i3 Rex worked because 70mi/electric and another 70mi/gas was all I ever needed.  Since it was electric-only 90% of the time the benefits of minimal maintenance of an EV worked in my favor.

The i3 got old and my current needs require trips of 120mi one-way fairly often (5-10x/month).  Even with the Rex, it was a chore to drive on I95 looking for chargers at just the right interval.  Never really managed it.  There are some good ones in Maryland but...

Since I know I drive about a 100mi/week with those occasional long trips I knew I wanted a PHEV to do that 100mi/week electrically and not worry about charging on the long trips.

The Mini was a bit of an impulse buy but I'm really loving it so far.

[JLM]

Bought a $53k Lexus 300h in January that replaced a 2012 Camry with 267k miles.  The Camry was a fine car, mileage was slipping from 33 to 30 mpg.  The only issue was failed lock actuators ($1800 to replace 3 that went out in succession).  Have only 6k miles on the Lexus but it gets 43 mpg.  It's a smooth/quiet operator, with lots of safety features - feels like it drives itself.  Hybrid battery comes with lifetime replacement warranty.  But dealer service is expensive ($106 for an oil change with synthetic oil and a special fuel additive).  Price of owning a luxury brand I suppose.

Haven't found a single recharging station in my rural county, so electric was out of the question.  Not a believer in lugging thousands of pounds of batteries around that are environmentally harmful to produce/dispose of and powered by burning coal anyway.  Solar powered fuel cells make more sense to me, but the needed infrastructure for distribution may never come thanks to the fossil fuel investment. 

Hybrid pricing varies but can be competitive with ICE (Internal Combustion Engine).  Yes there's added complexity that shade tree mechanics would struggle with, but no difference for everyday driving with the advantage of improved fuel economy.  Always do the math on maintenance costs versus fuel savings.  I bought the Lexus based on superior reliability and projected long life (even better than Toyota). 

[Photon46]

I bought a 2013 Lexus Ct200h hybrid in 2015 with 20k on the odometer and have driven it for 100,000 miles on a 70 mile a day commute. It's been the most reliable car I've ever owned. About the only thing that's gone wrong is a mysterious, so far untraceable, intermittent rattle that no one can seem to find the source of. It's more of a European market car than a typical American vehicle, but it has served me well as a one person commuter. I average 40-42 mpg.

[Phil A]

P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.

Correct - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-us-power-grid-isnt-ready-electric-cars-john-w-mortensen

Also, as I noted above, a significant percentage of the US electricity comes from polluting sources - e.g. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Also, Lithium can't be recycled and Cobalt is used in its manufacture.  Many of the Cobalt mines in Africa are owned by the Chinese and people die regularly getting it out of the ground - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V3bIzNX4co

No one ever talks about this either -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8

or this  -  https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7#:~:text=Charging%20any%20of%20these%20vehicles,about%20%2416.10%20per%20100%20miles.

"Charging any of these vehicles at home will run about $12.62 per 100 miles while fueling one at a gas station may run about $11.08. That difference, while not incredibly substantial, may add up — and when these drivers go to a public charging station, they're likely to pay about $16.10 per 100 miles."

I also noted earlier, I took my vehicle on one trip earlier this year and up in the mountains and on the way, charging stations were rarely seen. 

Now EV technology will get better over time - e.g.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EF2inScuaw    If so, down the road, I might consider something with a gas engine which plugs in and can take me a decent distance (at least 60 miles) on an electric charge from home and the only time I'd need to gas up is when I exceeded that distance (which for me is likely to mean a road trip).

[Randy]

Our 2022 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid has about 10k miles on it right now. Getting around 43-45mpg according to the dash. I think that's because neither my wife or I are very aggressive drivers. Very happy so far with the mileage.....and don't have to worry about the non-existent US battery charging infrastructure.

However, the issues we had with the !@#@@#%^ 2nd fob "program" -- we got the bait-&-switch and had only one key for this car for 10 months -- were beyond maddening. Toyota couldn't have done much more to botch this issue if they had a designated team assigned solely to screw this up. This soured us on making a Toyota purchase again. Not sure that will ever happen. Nice car, though.

-dGB

P.S. Read up on the potential power grid issues with having all of America switch over to EVs. Even if they build a bunch of charging stations overnight, the increased electricity demand will probably tax the grid to well beyond capacity. Some states, like CA, are trying to plan for this drastic increase in electricity need. Other states -- I promise I won't name names -- good luck with that. But this issue alone is one of the reasons why we opted for a hybrid. The US infrastructure is not ready for a 100% changeover to EVs right now.

California can hardly keep the lights on and the air conditioners running at peak demand I've heard.  How will they handle a few million electric vehicles?

[mick wolfe]

I agree, although some folks may have the good fortune to be able to charge at home and never use the spotty charging infrastructure. Even so, they and the planet would be better off with a plug-in hybrid because pure EVs have so much battery and motor the environmental impacts are huge and it takes a lot of time to recoup all that investment. With a car like the Hummer EV that may never even happen, it's probably worse than most ICE vehicles.

This is Toyota's position the issue, and it's why they offer hybrids. I agree with them. Most other companies and people seem overly enthusiastic and very emotional about EVs, they are the guilt-free luxury vehicles to have because of that. It's all BS though, lol. Your Tesla with a 300+ mile range and 0-60 <4s, 2.5 ton conveyance isn't saving the world.

EV's aren't going to save anything. Quite the opposite in fact. A hybrid easily makes the most sense to me. With that all said though, I'll probably keep driving my ICE vehicle till one of us expire.

[AJinFLA]

I drive a 2019 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, 12 miles round trip for work daily, haven't put gas in, in 3+ months. However if I do need to do a longer trip, most certainly wouldn't want an EV with all the long distance charging nightmares I've seen. Like the ICE option. They work seamlessly together.
Don't mind plugging in to the 115V outlet for 4 hours after I get home at all. To me PHEVs make the most sense...for me. Next gen has double the EV range. I'd expect the same for next gen RAV4 too. Might be my next vehicle.

cheers,

AJ

[Tyson]

Personally I think full EV's do not make sense if you don't have a garage. 

If you DO have a garage then full EV's are a no brainer.  FAR cheaper to run and maintain. 

I never have to worry about charging infrastructure because it's always 'full' when I leave my house. 

Was joking with my buddy (who own's several Porches) that driving a Model Y is like driving a Porsche, if a Porsche got 130 miles to the gallon and cost zero dollars to maintain. 

Earlier today my son and I went into the mountains with it for the first time, to see the fall foliage.  Going out west to Evergreen, then south to Morrison (along the river) and I have to say, there's something especially beautiful about experiencing the awesomeness of nature in a vehicle that is whisper quiet. 

[mresseguie]

Personally I think full EV's do not make sense if you don't have a garage. 

If you DO have a garage then full EV's are a no brainer.  FAR cheaper to run and maintain. 

I never have to worry about charging infrastructure because it's always 'full' when I leave my house. 

Was joking with my buddy (who own's several Porches) that driving a Model Y is like driving a Porsche, if a Porsche got 130 miles to the gallon and cost zero dollars to maintain. 

Earlier today my son and I went into the mountains with it for the first time, to see the fall foliage.  Going out west to Evergreen, then south to Morrison (along the river) and I have to say, there's something especially beautiful about experiencing the awesomeness of nature in a vehicle that is whisper quiet.

No arguments about advantages of EVs over ICE. However, I have ridden in two different Tesla models - the Y and I don't recall the other (not the S). Both times I sat in the backseat and was surprised and very bothered by the huge volume of road noise coming through the wheel wells and/or trunk. Teslas may be quiet in the front seats, but riding in the backseat is not a pleasant experience.

[Tyson]

No arguments about advantages of EVs over ICE. However, I have ridden in two different Tesla models - the Y and I don't recall the other (not the S). Both times I sat in the backseat and was surprised and very bothered by the huge volume of road noise coming through the wheel wells and/or trunk. Teslas may be quiet in the front seats, but riding in the backseat is not a pleasant experience.

Your experience is right on.  And it wasn’t just the back seats it was the whole car, they were all fairly noisy.  The Model Y got much quieter about 4 months ago due to using gigacastings as well as substantial improvements to the suspension, along with things like double panes acoustic glass on the windows. 

The Y is already really quiet now, and the Model 3 is in the process of getting these same changes, it’s available in Europe and Asia but not yet America.

The crazy thing is that they are making all these changes at the same time that they are reducing their prices.  For example my Model Y was 52k before rebates back in July and now the same model is $48k.  Impressive.

[VinceT]

EVs don't make sense with the fragile national power grid and limited travel distance. Also really not viable in the north when it's cold when the batteries lose efficiency.

Hybrid does and been around a long time, also I think the alternatives like hydrogen and perhaps other fuel types will displace batteries when it's all said and done.