[SMA]

I have a system I am really enjoying but I think I have read too many reviews or something, because I am pondering a change in my integrated amplifier. I currently have an Anthem STR Integrated amplifier driving a pair of Salk Song 3's. For digital, I have a Salk Streamplayer III (using Roon) going into a Schitt Bifrost 2/64 (the Anthem DAC is quite good but has a bit more "sparkle" than I like compared to the Bifrost) then into the Anthem. For phono I have a Marantz TTs15s and use the Anthem's phono preamp, which I really like. I love the Song 3's in my room (15 x 25 with fairly minor treatment and the speakers about 60" from the front wall). I also have two Rythmik F12 subwoofers and use Anthem ARC 500hz and below, which makes sub integration extremely easy. My question is whether a higher end (cost) integrated amplifier would make a meaningful difference in sound quality? I have a potential opportunity to buy a Bel Canto EX1 integrated which also comes with built in DAC, phono and limited DSP to control bass. I listened to the Bel Canto at a shop last Spring and the salesman said the Bel Canto "was an upgrade in every way" over the Anthem (he did not tell me if he had ever heard the Anthem). I have had some good mid-tier amplifiers in the past, Carver M-1.5t, Rogue Sphinx 2, Onkyo, but have never had what many would call "audiophile" amplification. I liked them all, especially the Rogue, but none were as good as the Anthem nor made a change in sound quality that came close to what I have observed from upgrading speakers or speaker placement. Thoughts on whether the Bel Canto or something else in the $7-10,000 range would be a noticeable improvement with the Salks?

[Bingenito]

1- yes amp’s definitely matter and there can be an audible difference. Doesnt mean that you will prefer it.

2- amps in my opinion matter less than the room, layout, proper speaker placement and room treatments.

3- sales people are generally clueless so I ignore them as I do any professional audio reviews

Besides a little more sparkle then you would like you might really dig deep on what you are looking for before you single out the amp. I have owned song 3 encores and they were never bright or aggressive. Sparkle can be controlled easily with treatments at first reflection points and maybe a few degrees less toe in for like $140 for 2 panels.

[SMA]

Actually, it was only the DAC in the Anthem that had more sparkle, and then only when compared to the Bifrost. I do have panels at first reflection and do not have any complaints about the system. I have been to Axpona a couple of times and listened to many systems in shops, and to be honest never heard anything that was more satisfying than mine, but always chocked it up to systems in hotel rooms or poor speaker placement. However, I do not live in an area where I can get an amplifier into my room with the rest of my system to try it out so am asking if people have experience with the amplifier itself making a large difference in sound quality?

[morganc]

IME, depending on the resolution of your speakers, every component can play a huge role in sound improvement.  If your room and placement is dialed in, then I'd certainly try a different amp.  That's the fun of this hobby.

However, When I look at your system, I'd guess the weak link is your DAC ie that's where you can get the most bang for your buck in an upgrade.

I've never owned Salk so I'll defer recommendations to those who have owned Salks and tried the amps in question.  I'd never listen to salesman period.  If it were me and shopping for an integrated, Id Look at Modwright and Pass Labs. 

[Bingenito]

If you are using the Anthem ARC room correction especially the latest update with time correction of sub integration than the Anthem integrated will be hard to beat. I have experience with that setup in a second system. If you really spend the time with arc genesis and have subs the difference is night and day better than the sum of your gear.

My personal pov- stick to what you got because it works and if you spend a ton of coin on a dac ahead of the anthem… it is still being converted to digital to perform room correction and then back to analog.

[Early B.]

Thoughts on whether the Bel Canto or something else in the $7-10,000 range would be a noticeable improvement with the Salks?

With that budget, you should buy "audiophile quality" used separates -- specifically an amp, preamp, and DAC -- and they will absolutely blow away your Anthem and Schiit. You haven't heard what your Salk speakers sound like yet. If you want high quality without high prices, buy from smaller companies with great reputations. Start with something like a First Watt amp, a tube preamp (a million awesome options), and a Denafrips or Holo Audio DAC.

[Photon46]

It's been my experience over many years that it's impossible to predict in advance of of an actual trial what combination of amp/preamp/speakers are going to make "magic" happen. There are so many unpredictable combinations of damping factor, impedance, and other parameters that influence the outcome. You could easily try several different amps that sound different but not better and then suddenly you'll find one that transforms the sound for the better. It's happened to me more than once. 

[Freo-1]

Here's yet another option:


Look at a used NAD M33 Master Series or a Devialet Expert Pro 220.  I have extensive experience with the Devialet, and they are a great option. They have TI's top DAC, some of the best specs in the industry.  Don't need a lot of interconnects, as it's pretty much built in.  Devialet to me is the genuine exception to the separates argument. 

[morganc]

If you are using the Anthem ARC room correction especially the latest update with time correction of sub integration than the Anthem integrated will be hard to beat. I have experience with that setup in a second system. If you really spend the time with arc genesis and have subs the difference is night and day better than the sum of your gear.

My personal pov- stick to what you got because it works and if you spend a ton of coin on a dac ahead of the anthem… it is still being converted to digital to perform room correction and then back to analog.

If that’s the case, then I take back my DAC recommendation as I am not familiar with the Anthem correction software. 

[Bingenito]

Having owned Salk Song 3 Encores and used Anthem with ARC genesis and stereo subs I respectfully disagree with others that are naming other gear to buy. Am I a huge fan of Anthem? Nope. Can you buy something better? Yep

What is better? It all comes down to engineering compromises. If you did not have subs being paired with full range speakers I might recommend a different DAC first and amp second. That said if you use ARC to its fullest potential then the subwoofer and main speaker integration will be as close to optimal as possible. Anyone who thinks that they can do what the software does using REW and their ears is sorely mistaken. If you are one of those people use the gear vs reading about it and get back to us after real world experience.

The compromise is that with the quality subs that you have and room correction you are getting near perfect bass and soundstage scale. Turn off ARC using your phone mid-track and you will hear the bass get bloated, slow and lumpy. Any amp that you switch to needs to climb that hill first and solve the foundational issues before it can improve on anything. I would argue that First Watt or any Pass Labs amp would be some of the worst solid state to pair with that speaker as compared to full room corrected amps with more headroom and better dampening.

Before anyone throws keyboard flames... yep I have tried it with the Salk speakers. Dark mids, lots of bass bloom and loss of dynamics.

So in closing sure you can buy something new but again optimize ARC and flip it to off and see how much you are giving up first. I used the Song 3s crossed over at 50hz to first 2 rythmik subs, then 2 REL carbon specials and then Arendal 1723 2s. With the new time alignment function which is additional setup in the advanced menu the bass was amazing.

My other system that I use for reference sounds much better but costs a considerable amount more. Not getting into that here.

[WGH]

Bingenito has given the best answer so far but as he said you can always buy something better. (5 subs? Guess you then need integration)

Salk and Audio by Van Alstine electronics are always a very synergistic match, that is what I use with my Salk HT2-TL speakers. The combination of the AVA Fet Valve CFR preamp with the DVA SET 500 amp would leave enough in the budget for a couple pair of Hapa interconnects which are absolutely necessary to get the best sound. Read the Hapa reviews at their circle:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=45

I also use a HoloAudio DAC, none better for the price. The HoloAudio is a non-oversampling DAC, it doesn't have any digital harshness because is doesn't upsample (although it can internally with the push of a button but nobody uses it that way). The HoloAudio DAC's really shine when combined with a fairly high powered dedicated music server (not a laptop) with HQPlayer that runs state-of-the-art upsampling converting all music to DSD384. Then you will really hear what the Song3's are capable of.

I get lots of opportunities to listen to other brands of electronics through our local audio club and Van Alstine is still excellent sounding. A member uses a Luxman 509X integrated if you are itching to spend $10,000. It is a very nice sounding and good looking integrated. The Luxman is driving a pair of Joseph Audio Perspective2 Graphene speakers with a pair of Salk subs.

I have the Anthem AVM60 processor which I use for home theater, the preamp section pales in comparison to the Van Alstine Fet Valve CRF preamp which is clearer, tighter, less colored and more fun to listen to. The AVM60 is excellent for video and surround sound, which is totally different than stereo.

I use a single REL Gilbraltar G2 sub and never had a problem with integration. The sub has a LFE input so the Anthem does calibrate the bass for video. I use the recommended High Level Input (Neutrik Speakon) from the amp for stereo. REL subs are designed to be used with full range speakers like the Song3. I set my sub crossover at 32 HZ, right around where the HT2-TL rolls off (the Gibraltar has a digital display for crossover frequency and volume).

If I set the sub crossover at 50 Hz the sound would have "Dark mids, lots of bass bloom and loss of dynamics." Then I would need DSP like the Anthem to integrate and time align the bass. If music doesn't have bass material below 35 or 40 Hz I can't tell the sub is on. All music has 50 Hz content, that would effectively double the amount the amount of mid-bass by combining the Salk's with REL subs, that would be a disaster. REL subs are designed as sub-bass speakers although they can be used as plain old subs when paired with stand mounted speakers with limited low range.

There are a lot of set-up articles on the REL website:
https://rel.net/

How to Fine-Tune a REL
When you are dialing in your REL, stop focusing on what the clicks mean in terms of Hz steps, and instead focus on how it sounds in your room using your ears.  Start with the crossover set a little low , perhaps bring it up a click or two, hear the sub and speaker marry up perfectly and then stop and enjoy. Learn to trust your ears. In the example using the speakers referenced above, you wouldn’t be crossing over at 28 Hz in any event because a REL needs to cross lower than the main speaker in order to blend perfectly.

Have you tried the High Level Input Neutrik Speakon connection and lowering the crossover level to only enhance frequencies below 35 Hz? You may be pleasantly surprised.

[SMA]

Wow, a lot to think about. Thank you all. I took a lot of time with the speaker placement and ARC, Everything I read said find the best positions for the speakers and subs, put in acoustic panels as needed and then, and only then, run ARC to get the last bit of improvement. That is what I did and I have run the latest version of ARC using phase correction in the integration of the subs. As I said in the first post, I am real happy with the current sound but am curious as to whether there is more to be had with better electronics. I have also thought about changing DAC's and have heard great things about the Holo audio Spring 3. Maybe that is the way to go. Bottom line, I wish there was a way to find out if something is going to make that "not subtle" huge difference (yes, I do intend some sarcasm in that comment but also curiosity) in sound quality without having to buy and try new equipment.

[Freo-1]

Would still look at a used Devialet 220 Expert Pro.  Read the reviews.  It would very likely improve your sonic performance, and would save $$$ on interconnect cables as well.

[Bingenito]

WGH... That is awesome, did I win something? 

Just kidding but this is a good thread with lots of people chiming in to help. I live in NC which is basically the hifi wasteland of North America so I find dealers who will ship me gear to try. Negotiate the price upfront, understand if you can use their shipping acct to return if you cannot buy the demo unit. I have done this with cables, Aurender N20 and several other pieces.

So after you mess with your settings if you decide to explore new gear, limit your risk and find a dealer willing to add value and ship to you.

[Freo-1]

WGH... That is awesome, did I win something? 

Just kidding but this is a good thread with lots of people chiming in to help. I live in NC which is basically the hifi wasteland of North America so I find dealers who will ship me gear to try. Negotiate the price upfront, understand if you can use their shipping acct to return if you cannot buy the demo unit. I have done this with cables, Aurender N20 and several other pieces.

So after you mess with your settings if you decide to explore new gear, limit your risk and find a dealer willing to add value and ship to you.

Makes good sense.  I think most of us now have to do some version of this method.

[WGH]

I wish there was a way to find out if something is going to make that "not subtle" huge difference ... in sound quality without having to buy and try new equipment.

Hapa cables will make that huge difference, often bigger than an new amp. Why? Usually cables are the bottleneck. At this level the sound is all about small differences, an average cable will obscure small low level signals like echos and subterranean bass that add realism and space to a performance. I have heard all the Hapa cables in my system, they are all subtly different and wonderful.

I don't know what tours are still happening, there have been interconnect, digital and speaker cable tours. Send Pez a PM or ask in the Hapa Circle. Listen and decide in your system, free, no pressure, nothing to buy but a review helps everyone out.

[Freo-1]

Hapa cables will make that huge difference, often bigger than an new amp. Why? Usually cables are the bottleneck. At this level the sound is all about small differences, an average cable will obscure small low level signals like echos and subterranean bass that add realism and space to a performance. I have heard all the Hapa cables in my system, they are all subtly different and wonderful.

I don't know what tours are still happening, there have been interconnect, digital and speaker cable tours. Send Pez a PM or ask in the Hapa Circle. Listen and decide in your system, free, no pressure, nothing to buy but a review helps everyone out.

Color me skeptical.  I have never believed that high end cables can achieve this.  Better electronics, especially higher end integrated solutions, where expensive interconnects are not needed, IMHO, will achieve the improvements you  discuss.


As you say, let people try the cables for themselves.  Also, audition some higher end electronics solutions for themselves, and let their listening results decide for themselves. 


My experience is that I've gotten FAR more improvements via upgrading electronics (and speakers) than cables.  But, to each their own. 

[WGH]

Color me skeptical.  I have never believed that high end cables can achieve this.

Ever take part in a Hapa tour?

I'm the biggest skeptic ever and write honest reviews about products that unperformed in real world use ranging from all the USB filter dongles to the original nCore NC400 amp. I caught shit over that last one until a new improved better sounding model appeared then the consensus was the originals never sounded that good. And then there are products I have heard and didn't care for that have such a big fan base that no way would I ever consider writing a review.

A belief is just that, some nebulous idea pulled out of the ether with no basis in fact. Hapa cables are the real deal, but don't believe me, try them. Many of the guys in our Tucson Audio Group tried them and bought Hapa Cables after auditioning them at home and comparing them to all the different cables they used to love.

[Early B.]

Color me skeptical.  I have never believed that high end cables can achieve this.  Better electronics, especially higher end integrated solutions, where expensive interconnects are not needed, IMHO, will achieve the improvements you discuss.

Many previously skeptical audiophiles treat cables as components. 

[Freo-1]

Many previously skeptical audiophiles treat cables as components.

Except they are not.  Cables have three basic properties:  Capacitance, Inductance. and Resistance.  That's it.  Those can all be measured.  Do not need to spend big $$$ to achieve excellent measurements. 


People are free to spend on whatever they think will improve their systems.  My argument is better results can be obtained (and backed by measurements) by putting the percentage of $$$ towards better electronics.  Quality cables can be obtained for reasonable costs.