positive feedback review

lushds · « **on:** 27 Apr 2005, 04:07 am »

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/clari-t.htm

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 11:26 am »

Quote from: lushds

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/clari-t.htm

Lushds,

Thanks for posting!

All,

Looks like the Positive Feedback double-review was posted yesterday!

Also, I've been making updates to the webpage:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/News.html

-- We have Monica 2 dac boards ready for custom installation
-- A Clari-T "Upgrades and Customization" section has been added
-- We updated the "Products" section to include the Puri-T Passive Preamp
-- We now have the correct 75-ohm BNC connectors and jacks

More updates to follow, which will include:

-- The Lotus, which Louis of Omega and I are planning to try with a rosewood finish. These will be ready for sale mid to end of next month.
We'll also be using different Cardas binding posts

-- An all battery powered cd player/transport is in the works. The prototype is sounding incredibly good with the Clari-T (using the analog outputs as well as the digital out to the Monica 2 dac!). I'm hoping to have this ready to go for the summer....still tweaking, listening, and need to figure out what to do for a nice enclosure. Louis, HELP!!!

I'm really excited about ALL OF THIS, and want to again say how thankful I am to be part of AudioCircle. I really appreciate all your interest, patience, and support during this crazy start-up period for Red Wine Audio! It still feels like yesterday that I was polling for votes to start this circle, and in just a couple of months, thinks are starting to rock!

Thank you!

miklorsmith · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 03:08 pm »

The reviewers didn't even try to arrange a full system to take advantage of the amp. I'm very disappointed in them. One take used "big amp" speakers and the other didn't even try a preamplifier.

I'd say the next round of reviews should use a non-volume-controlled unit to avoid this remarkably superficial look at a fantastic product.

Srajan Ebaen has been apprised of the pre issue and will be using at least two different 100+ db speakers. I think we'll see a VERY different view from that perspective.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 03:27 pm »

Well, the second guy used the amp with a tube pre, and reported positive improvements, so I would say they gave it a reasonable shake.

I am hinging on trying one of the stock ones with my Hagerman pre, but I don't have speakers that are efficient enough, I fear.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 03:46 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith

The reviewers didn't even try to arrange a full system to take advantage of the amp. I'm very disappointed in them. One take used "big amp" speakers and the other didn't even try a preamplifier.

I'd say the next round of reviews should use a non-volume-controlled unit to avoid this remarkably superficial look at a fantastic product.

Srajan Ebaen has been apprised of the pre issue and will be using at least two different 100+ db speakers. I think we'll see a VERY different view from that perspective.

Hi Mike,

I have to agree with you on the about the second review. I had no idea what speakers were going to be used for that review came out, and it turns out that they were DIY speakers using Scan Speak 8535 drivers. A DIY speaker can be a little hard for those reading to establish a reference point with. Also, these are not anywhere near efficient enough for a good review of a 6 watt amp. The other amps the reviewer has with his DIY speakers look like they are > 100 watts/channel.

The fact is that I should have found all of this out before letting the first reviewer know that it was ok to send the Clari-T out for a second review.
I should have also insisted that we speak over phone. This is my first time dealing with the review process, so it is a "live and learn" process for me I guess. I wish I was able to see the review before it was posted, because I would have suggested a more-efficient speaker to be used...heck, the 90dB Triangle Titus 202's that I own would probably have been better, and they aren't even high-efficiency.

Anyway, I really do appreicate the fact that those two gentleman took the time out to review the Clari-T! The next review will come from 6moons.com, in with the Clari-T (with subwoofer output jacks) will be used with Cain and Cain Abbey Speakers and a Bailey Subwoofer. This should do the trick!

From there, I asked the reviewer to send the Clari-T over to Srajan to test out next with the Druids! How 'bout them apples

Louis from Omega and I will also be sending Srajan a full system that will have the Lotus, Hemp 8" speakers, Battery DAC, and hopefully my battery transport will be ready by then as well. This should make for a smokin' system

Regards,

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 03:50 pm »

Quote from: mcgsxr

Well, the second guy used the amp with a tube pre, and reported positive improvements, so I would say they gave it a reasonable shake.

I am hinging on trying one of the stock ones with my Hagerman pre, but I don't have speakers that are efficient enough, I fear.

Hi Mark,

If you still want the tweaked Tripath + Battery Power sound that the Clari-T delivers, but need more power, it is time to send one of your Teacs over to me!

I have two more on their way, so there should be more people posting their impressions soon.

Cheers!

mcgsxr · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 04:01 pm »

Bad Vinnie!

Bad Bad Vinnie!

Tempting a poor guy like that!

At the moment I am planning on building new, more efficient speakers, as a first step towards having more audio fun. As you know I bought a new house (move in August) and want something for the basement 2 channel system. I will be able to split up my HT and 2 channel there.

To this end, I plan to take the DIY WR125 speakers I built late last year, and add the balance of the KIT41 from DIY Cable. These will then live in the new family room, as the mains for the HT, driven by one of the Teacs, through the B&K pre pro.

For the basement 2 channel "retreat" I envision some open baffle fun, with my Hagerman Clarinet, Nakamichi transport, Mensa, and Bolder Cabling. The other Teac will live there for the near term.

There are a couple of things to sort out there.

Budget - With a new house, and second child coming in Nov of this year, I will have to see what is leftover. That one is easy to sort out.

Synergy - Once I have built the speakers, and am "in situ" I will be able to determine how the two Teacs (one at a time) drive the speakers, and what I think should or can be improved on...

One idea that I have shared with a fellow AC member, is a swap for a couple of weeks/months in the summer. I would send a Teac, and receive a modded SI, to get a taste of the "unknown" where it matters, right in my room.

Following that experiment, and hinging on the budget, I will come crawling to you, and see if a battery Teac, or a Clari-T is the better bet for me.

Now, go back to tempting others!

F-100 · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 04:07 pm »

Quote from: Vinnie R.

The next review will come from 6moons.com, in with the Clari-T (with subwoofer output jacks) will be used with Cain and Cain Abbey Speakers and a Bailey Subwoofer.

Hi Vinnie,
I'm looking forward to this review because I have a similar setup (Abbey and DIY subwoofer) and have been standing on the sideline to see how your Clari-T is coming along.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Apr 2005, 04:09 pm »

Of the reviewers, one had proper speakers but admitted to not trying a pre. He didn't give it a fair shake.

The other guy had speakers that looked very ill-matched. Would he use those for a SET test? Methinks not.

Anyways, these guys missed the boat by a week and a half. I'd say too bad for them, except they share these opinions with the public who look to them for advice. By not doing a thorough job, they cheat a lot of people who might be interested in a world-class amp for $500.

This might be OK for Joe Audiohead of AC, but I guess I just expect more from "professional" reviews.

GHM · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 12:53 am »

I must agree..the reviews really sucked. It looked as though the reviews were rushed. The ClariT wasn't even competely burned in. On top of that the second reviewer had a some what snob appeal.

Very poor reviews in my book.Vague without real depth.

I suppose if a persons looking for and artificial sound. The ClariT
definitely isn't the way to go. It also doesn't cover the flaws of the source.
I can easily hear the difference in cd/dvd players. Some are flat all on their own. Someone that uses tubes will have a tougher time hearing this.
When they do hear it, they blame it on the newest non tube component in the system. Not realizing the source is what's flat and harsh in the system.

I have no problem with the ClariT not being for everyone. I just hate to see a great product not get a fair shake. Anyone that's been in this hobby for a while knows you have to work to achieve the sound you seek. It doesn't come from plug and play.

lushds · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 05:28 am »

Maybe the review of the Clari-T was not done in an optimized setting, but I do agree with some of the positives/negatives mentioned by the reviewers. As much as I love my Clari-T I felt in some areas it is not up to par compared to some good SET/300b amp. However its strengths very much outweigh its weaknesses and this is an amp I can live with for a long time.

Reading from the posts here it seems like some people cannot accept anything less than a perfect review.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 06:26 am »

If I were to pass judgment on the amp with only 30 hours on it in the context of the associated equipment, I think I might have written a similair review.

Positive Feedback? Who are they and from whence they came? Are they the NKOTB?

Vinnie, Jesus said, "Don't cast your pearls before swine." Now there's a thought!

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 06:39 am »

lushds,

I've got a buddy who just sold his Sun 300b. He actually preferred the sound of his Cayin EL 34 based amp, but just flogged that too. He's also has a very nice looking EL84 push pull amp and that he's going to dispose of that very soon.

Upon receiving my Clari-T, I gave him my Sonic Impact and he is nothing short of amazed!

GHM · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 08:30 am »

As I've said Lushds I have no problems with positive and negative reviews. This review wasn't done properly plain and simple. Look at a well written and tested review. This wasn't it ! Looks like you are looking for something to justify your own likes and dislikes. That's fine too. It would be stupid to think the ClariT would be for everyone.

The great thing is the ClariT was stock. I'm about to impart on a journey of mods and tweaks with a good friend. I want to see how far the envelope can be pushed with this little guy. I think the addition of pure solid core silver wiring,silver hand wound chokes,Eichmann cable pods, WBT inputs, high grade paper in oil caps and some other modifications will put the HotRod ClariT in it's own catergory. I want to give this unit the best parts I can afford. It will be the closes thing to a straight wire connection when it's complete. You think 300Bs will work in every system and everyone will like it? I think not.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 11:30 am »

Thanks Lushds for letting us know about the PF review. Obviously, the two reviewers have different ears and biases. Gary likes it more than Ed does, good for him. If Ed didn't give the amp enough time to show off its virtues, how come Gary was able to enjoy it in the 1st review?

My personal experience was that, out of the box the T sounded mostly like Gary described but never sterile, unlike Ed's impression. However, my source was a mod Shanling SCD-T200 with tube output stage. Anyway, unimpressed, I quickly moved the T to the TV system where it drove a pair of DD 1.3/FE206E a couple hours a day, between chargings. For the following month or two I continued to enjoy the FirstWatt F1 that I had purchased shortly before the T. Interestingly, what Ed described the T is very similar to what I hear with the F1: even warmed up all day long, it's extremely detailed (and scarily holographic, unlike the reviewed T) but sterile most of the time unfortunately. The sterility the F1 possesses became obvious after the T woke up from the break in period, blossoming like the roses in my backyard. Power conditioner has always been the Powersnakes Shunyata Hydra, but next to the battery powered T, both AC tubed and solid state amps seem hopeless.

Who knows, maybe the T revealed a weakness in Ed's system, or Ed perhaps is suffering from a tubey syndrome. We all have our own set of priorities, whether we're aware or not. I didn't realize that the tonal purity would be that important to me until I heard the broken in T. Unknowingly, I have been looking for the "right" sound along the journey through high powered solid state, moderate powered tubes. low powered tubes, low powered SS, and now low battery powered T.

I started the break in process all over when the monoblocks T arrived 3 weeks ago. With the new Black Gate cap I learned that it will take longer than the stock stereo T to begin to sound their best. All I can do is to be patient. Can the reviewers do the same? Some can, others can't. One thing I observed: With other amps or components, I was more easily influenced by positive/negative reviews or opinions. Pleasantly and surprisingly, I don't feel a damn thing while reading Gary's positive and Ed's somewhat negative opinions, knowing what appeals to me in the T.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 01:09 pm »

All,

Just a few things I'd like to share about Gary's review:

Gary did admit to me that he may have rushed the review of the Clari-T a bit, and I know I was pretty excited and pushing for it to post without taking months and months to do so. I have to blame myself that that

One thing is for sure, he did NOT receive a broken-in Clari-T (again, this was in my control), but I am kind of glad about this because he was able to pick up on the changes that were taking place during burn-in...which is important to note in a review. Just like the famously long burn-in time of the Fostex drivers (as he had to be patient for with his Omega Grande 6's), the Clari-T defintely needs at least a good 100 hours of total play time to open up and really show off its stuff! Just about all of my Clari-T customers will agree on this.

In the amount of time that Gary had the Clari-T, I believe he made a good effort in pairing it with different speakers he had, and in trying two different rooms. From my emails with Gary, I can tell that he highly values "telling it like he hears it," and I do appreciate his approach.

Regarding not using a preamp, I knew in advance that Gary wasn't going to use one, as he was going for budget price simplicity; therefore he believed the additional cost of a pre to use with an amp that had a volume control was unnecessary. Also, if one wishes to run the Clari-T with an active preamp (tube of SS), it is best to order it without the volume control IMO.

I think Gary hit a home run for me in point out the following:

Quote

Truth be told, I am really struggling to find a way to describe the sound of this amp. I guess I could start by taking a page from Rossi's name for the amp—Clari-T. Yes, this amp does indeed provide clarity, and beyond that, it is the quietest amp I have ever not heard. Musical sounds develop unhindered by a high noise floor.

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The Clari-T is extremely transparent, and although there was occasional harshness in the treble on poor recordings, it is a smooth operator. It may produce just six little watts at 8 ohms, but it can drive sensitive speakers without breaking a sweat.

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As I said earlier, the Clari-T doesn't sound quite like any other amp I've experienced. It certainly does not smother music in euphonic sweetness, nor does it have the surgical-steel precision of some solid-state amps. It has its own sound, one that is a bit on the analytical side perhaps, yet is oddly embracing and musical. It is neither warm nor cold, and it has great detail, excellent inner resolution, and realistic tonality. You might say it presents a Class-T version of musical truthfulness.

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Considered solely on its sonic merits, the Clari-T-Amp is a really terrific. I could live with one from now on and not feel I was missing anything important to the soul of music. It would make a great amp around which to build a low-cost, high-quality audio system.

I also have to agree with both reviewers in saying that the Clari-T is definitely NOT perfect, and I'm sure there is gear out there that can reproduce certain aspects of the sound better. Tubes vs. Solid-State and High vs. Low power gear...it's all a tradeoff. I hope that many see the Clari-T as a very good trade, giving great value, and with the right pair of efficient speakers, sound reproduction that many larger and more expensive amps cannot touch!

Oh yeah, that battery power is a nice thing as well, right?

Moving onto Ed's review:

I have to agree with comments made that Ed's DIY speakers were not a great match for the Clari-T. Based on the Scan Speak drivers used, I would think that the efficiency was no greater than 87dB (I could be wrong), and Ed's other amps look like larger powered amps. Also, DIY speakers are difficult for readers to associate as a reference for the review.

When he reported about not getting a wide or deep soundstage, I initally was floored because I know one of the things that the Clari-T does so well (again, with speakers that are better suited for this amp), IMO, is render a wide and deep soundstage. IMO, the Clari-T needs speakers that I can move well to show off its ability to throw out a wide and deep soundstage.

There were times that I was a little confused by his review. For example,
Ed mentions:

Quote

After a few minutes of adjusting to the amp, I could hear that it had extremely high resolution, but I also have to report that it emphasized the highs over the rest of the range.

But then, he states:

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Don't get me wrong—the Clari-T sounded really good. It was full range, smooth, and even. At first I thought that the amount of detail was making it sound hot, but in retrospect, I decided that the Clari-T sounded sterile because it was so clean.

I also believe that a lot has to do with the fact that Ed is definitely a "tube-guy," and he even states in the end of the review:

Quote

I confess to being very spoiled by tubes and their undeniable richness. For those of you who don't share this tendency, and who value resolution and detail, the Clari-T may be just the ticket.

Some people love what tubes "add" to the music. I much prefer start with a source that gets things right from the start, and then amplify it in a way that ideally does not add or take away from the sound. Tubes are well-known for "adding" to the sound, which is not a bad thing at all if you like this. It is a matter of taste, and one's taste in sound can also change over time.

Getting back to the review, Ed stated some really nice things about the Clari-T as well:

Quote

It also does a pretty good job in the bass department. Lows were clean and rather stout for a 6-watt amplifier. The Clari-T easily puts SET amps to shame in the low end. Madonna's American Life has plenty of bass, and never once did I find the Clari-T lacking in that department. I can also say that I never craved more power, even when listening to rock and orchestral works.

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One area where the Clari-T really did shone however, was it's low level detail. I noticed that with or without the pre-amp and the volume control barely cranked, the Clari-T still exhibited an amazing amount of detail and resolution.

I do wish Ed was able to try the Clari-T-Amp with a different set of speakers, but I should have made more effort in making sure he was using a pair that I felt were better suited for the job. Also, the Clari-T does not seem to hide anything from the recording and source, so it would have been great if other sources were tried in this review (especially a battery powered DAC!

), but as I mentioned in my earlier post, this has been a learning experience for me, and I do appreciate the time that both Gary and Ed have taken to evaluate and review the Clari-T.

I want to say "thank you" again to Gary and Ed of PFO, and thanks to members here on Audiocircle for defending the Clari-T-Amp where they believed it wasn't reviewed under the best conditions. While I agree, I have to put blame on myself for being inexperienced with the whole process...

As long as we're all still having fun, all is good!

Sincerely,

smargo · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 01:31 pm »

Quote

the sound of the Clari-T-Amp shine brightly from within its quietness.

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but in this case it is more like music escaping from the event horizon of a black hole.

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but the Clari-T/Nola combination rocked the bigger room with a huge soundstage, very good bass, and sparkling highs. Although the amp would run out of juice at times, it sounded great nonetheless.

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John Hiatt's wonderful acoustic guitar work and deep, growling vocals on the CD Crossing Muddy Waters were terrific, and seemed pitch perfect to me (having heard Hiatt live a couple of times).

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The Clari-T has excellent bass control and a punchy, dynamic sound. I felt it sounded better in the bigger room, where the additional space allowed me to turn the volume up to a point at which dynamic contrasts were more noticeable.

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Its virtues include its quiet clarity and excellent inner resolution, which make it a bona fide contender in the low-budget/high-value ring.

Vinni:

The above are a few more positives. I think it was a great review. It is a shame that his unit did not have lets say 300 hrs on it.

I think he absolutely got the jist of the sound of the amp - however as we all know it definetly improves over time like a fine wine.

Anyway much to proud of - and Im sure a lot more people will be curious

Regards,
smargo

Dmason · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 03:01 pm »

I too agree that the overall tone was very positive. Gary Beard's review was well written, and unusually circumspect. As Smargo points out, the whole thing is peppered with insightful and positive anecdotes, any one of which could be hot buttons for the uninitiated.

The second review starts out by disqualifying the veracity of the review in general, by admitting to a complete ignorance of the origins of the amp, its creator, its intended application, etc. The whole reason for a review is to give an overview. This guy discounted the raison d'etre for reviews, right out of the gate.

So, I responded accordingly, and gave it nothing more than a groom through, noticing along the way, -ScanSpeak 8535, and my immediate thought, beyond DIY speakers, -which NO ONE would be able to draw parallels to anyway, nor any explanation of, was that whatever way he had those wired up, with a tweeter, ALWAYS yields an in room SPL of about 83db. Tis the nature of that line of drivers, and I wouldnt use anything less than about 200 watts to do them justice. MANY knowledgeable readers will make note of that type of thing, and have the same reaction as myself, that possibly, this guy has no idea of what he is doing, or at the very least, didn't even make the effort to put in appropriate speakers. It was a quickie, and none too thorough. Overall though, I would say very positive.

Sterile, is NOT a word I would use in describing what I hear.

Wait til Srajan gets going, he understands you need a one inch bit to drill a one inch hole...

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 03:01 pm »

Where is the credibility in reviewer who publishes a review without even bothering to break a component in? Isn't that akin to Roger Ebert watching a movie for 30 minutes, then bailing out of the theater so he can write his review?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 03:05 pm »

Maybe the first review was interested in reviewing a "budget" system and didn't think a pre was warranted. However, the amp isn't a "budget" component, aside from the price. I understand the review should include "amp only" as a part of the review, but not to the exclusion of at least TRYING a pre with it. He pidgeonholed it before letting it take flight.

He highlighted some of the strengths of the amp, but completely missed the boat on the emotional communication it can deliver. In that way, he did not capture the Essence of the piece. A few crumbs doth not the sandwich make.

Over all, my opinion hasn't changed a bit. These guys did a marginal to poor job of setting up Systems to maximize the virtues of this amp. I like tubes and have a tubed CDP and tubed pre. They're very fast and un-tubey in the stereo(hehheh)typical sense but impart incredible dimension. Of course, I have proper speakers to judge.

The fact that the amp will not clip playing on low-eff speakers doesn't mean they're appropriate tools to analyze the amp. Period. Anyone willing to review a 6 watt amp has the responsibility to know that.

We may not be swayed by the lackluster performance of the scribes, but I can't imagine the non-AC public flocking to Vinnie's doorstep based on these. No, that will have to wait for the 6moons reviews. Remember how they assessed the stock SI with wall wart next to some of the finest SET jewelry on the planet? Yeah, this one's gonna be a lot different. Hope you have at least a couple hundred ready to roll out the door, Wineman.