[AllanS]

Over the past 18 months or so of listening, experimenting, and fleshing out my system (room/treatment included) I’m coming to the conclusion that I’m deaf, or at least insensitive, to many of the tone and timber and detail nuances that many hear.  Or my component mix is limiting system resolution, I’m not sure which.

I am finding that I’m sensitive, bordering on obsessive, about soundstage presentation; width, depth, height, separation, and balance.

System: Bluesound Vault 2i, PS Audio Gain Cell DAC/pre amp, PS Audio M1200 mono blocks, Spatial Audio M4 Sapphires, Audio Art SE speaker cables, Bluejeans Cable interconnects.

For all things other than balance my understanding is the greatest to least influence is the streamer/DAC followed by pre amp, followed by power amp.  Is this accurate?  If so I wonder if my component capability is reversed.  My sense is my power amps are the most capable and my streamer the least capable.

Balance is left and right sound stage extension beyond the speakers and relative height left to right.  In my setup the soundstage extends beyond the LH speaker quite well but little if any beyond the right.  What I hear is a decent center image but an overall presentation of a spacious left hand stage and compressed right hand stage.  Instrument and vocal placement height is natural in the LH side of the soundstage and unnaturally high in the RH side.  L/R speaker placement / toe in is within 1/4 inch of the primary listening position(s).  I suspect this imbalance is related to my asymmetric space.  I have longer speaker cables coming (for another system) and free standing panels that will allow me to experiment with symmetric speaker placement on the short wall.

[nature boy]

I believe it's a combination of your narrow room and the equipment & TV placement. Open baffle speakers tend to benefit from diffuser panels placed on a rear wall behind the speakers. My guess is that your getting backwaves bouncing off the rear wall and windows resulting in a reduced soundstage.

You might want to try setting things up along the long wall if possible. Also tubes somewhere in your equipment chain (preamp?) would likely help as well.

NB

[rollo]

 IMHO it is the speaker placement. Try the short wall with the 1/3 rule. The weak link in components is the streamer. Have fun trying.


charles

[Tyson]

Shift the speakers and your listening position slightly to the left, giving the right speaker more distance from the wall. 

If you want tone, you need tubes, IME. 

[BobM]

I have Apogees (dipoles also) and I agree - you need to put diffuser panels or devices on the wall behind them. The absorptive panels belong behind the listener. Live end by the speaker. Dead end by the listener. Yes, completely opposite of what is recommended for regular cone speakers in enclosed boxes.

[AllanS]

Many thanks all.  I appreciate your thoughts.   Easy stuff to try, at least up to introducing tubes.  I do have the DS Valhalla on the short list but want to start over at the front end.

[Early B.]

Many thanks all.  I appreciate your thoughts.   Easy stuff to try, at least up to introducing tubes.  I do have the DS Valhalla on the short list but want to start over at the front end.

You already know the answer -- your source isn't at the same level as the rest of your gear. Even if you fix the speaker placement issue, you won't be satisfied. You'll need a decent DAC. You're on the right track with the Valhalla -- it will give you what you want. We'll deal with your interconnects down the road. Put your initial budget at $8 grand minus what you can sell the PS Audio gear and Bluesound for, and you're ready to rock & roll.   

[VinceT]

IMHO would get the room reflections and placement nailed first and your current set up sounding its best. If you upgrade now it will be fools gold because it will sound better but not to its potential. You can still get good imaging and soundstage with what you have if the room is right, then any future upgrades you make will make even more of a difference and maximized to the room's potential versus better gear compensating for the room.

What are he dims of the room?

[CurtisIIX]

I understand the obsession with imaging and soundstage. I remember going to AXPONA to get taste of high quality stereo systems. While the good systems had amazing tonality and wide soundstage, the crème de la crème added height to the soundstage with excellent vertical separation. Those systems were to die for.

For soundstage, I have always thought of it like this: what is going to mess up the relative phase and amplitude of the right and left signals getting to your ears?

For the relative amplitude (and timing) of the L/R signals, this will include direct, indirect (first bounce) and diffuse signals. It is easiest to get the same L/R amplitude from the direct signals. The indirect and diffuse signals are affected by the room geometry, speaker placement and room treatments. So, this is where speaker placement and room treatments are going to be the key struggle. Others have already highlighted this and they have more experience incorporating dipoles into a room. Listen to them.

What else can screw-up the relative phase and amplitude? The quality of the speakers: driver matching, resonances, and matching and quality of the cross-over components. This shouldn’t to be problem with your speakers.

Next, I would look at the amplifier. When I demo amplifiers, I like to increase the volume and note the following: 1) at what (low) volume does the soundstage really jump out, 2) at what volume do I typically listen and 3) at what (high) volume does the distortion get too fatiguing. I think of this as the true dynamic range of the amplifier. If that range is limited, soundstage will likely suffer because you are still losing low level detail of the soundstage even if you are listening in the middle of range. You have plenty of power on tap, but it still would be helpful to evaluate range between 1 & 2.

I am not convinced that the pre-amp, DAC, and streamer are going to have much contribution to the soundstage at all. These devices are very close to being straight-wire with gain. Even if you add tubes here  – some of those crème de la crème systems had tubes – the speakers, room placement, and treatments are going to dominate.

[FullRangeMan]

My unsolicited advice is try the speakers with no toe-in or small degree. After had living with the Carver Amazing for some time I also think soundstage is paramount.

[AllanS]

You already know the answer -- your source isn't at the same level as the rest of your gear. Even if you fix the speaker placement issue, you won't be satisfied.

IMHO would get the room reflections and placement nailed first and your current set up sounding its best.
What are he dims of the room?

I agree with both.  It’s just a matter of order.  I’ve been leaning towards replacing everything except speakers but have been undecided about starting at the front and working my way back or just knocking it all out at once.  Y’all may just nudge me to do the latter. 
But my original mistake was going after gear rather than room and set up after buying speakers.  Everything since was pure frustration as nothing seemed to make much difference except finally dialing in speaker set up.  But what I’m hearing is I still have some work and room to improve set up and treatments which I’ll prioritize.

The room is a bit odd but the listening space is basically 11’ x14’.  The rest of the room is office space.

I bought the speakers with the intent of placing them on the short wall but the wife vetoed that setup because it put the RH speaker in the middle of a doorway.  And closing the door was not the right answer.

[AllanS]

When I demo amplifiers, I like to increase the volume and note the following: 1) at what (low) volume does the soundstage really jump out, 2) at what volume do I typically listen and 3) at what (high) volume does the distortion get too fatiguing.

A lot of interesting points. I’m adding this to my demo approach.

My unsolicited advice is try the speakers with no toe-in or small degree. After had living with the Carver Amazing for some time I also think soundstage is paramount.

Toe in and distance between baffle centers seemed to made no discernible difference.  This is one of the reasons I really question my listening skills and/or ears.

[Letitroll98]

Most of this has already been dealt with.  You have asymmetrical response from an asymmetrical speaker placement, not rocket science.  Massive absorption on the right wall, and as others note, dispersion behind the speakers.  But my goodness, a wonderful system using Blue Jeans cables?  I'm not a proponent of uber expensive cables, but a modest upgrade here will bring great improvements in both detail and soundstage.

[SoCalWJS]

Just a quick observation and comment.

You have a glaring issue, actually 2. TV and window behind speakers.

Speaker/Room interaction has huge impact on soundstage, probably the largest.

Easy experiments:

1) Place a blanket (gently) over TV.
      Better: place room treatment in front of screen
      Best: Remove TV (temporarily) and see what difference you get. Room treatment in place of

2) Hang a blanket over Window
      Better: Heavy Curtains
      Best: Room treatment in front of Heavy Curtains. Probably 3D Diffraction, followed by 2D.

Good, cheap options to start with (Remove TV and/or a couple of blankets), then go from there.

IME/IMO.

[FullRangeMan]

Toe in and distance between baffle centers seemed to made no discernible difference.  This is one of the reasons I really question my listening skills and/or ears.
Sorry to say it, but STM you will have to remove the big rack in the center to merge the left/right speakers soundstage IMO. I would carry the rack to behind the chair.

Edit: or in the left side where there is your computer desk now.

[Saturn94]

…You have asymmetrical response from an asymmetrical speaker placement, not rocket science…

This!