i2s streamer and dac

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tug

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i2s streamer and dac
« on: 20 May 2023, 08:58 pm »
Hello,
Since getting level and accurate frequency response and enjoying open baffle/accurate music, I want to get the most accurate and clean signal I can. Is i2s the cleanest transport system for audio? If so, what would be the most transparent, least colored option for streamer and DAC?
Thank you

Hafgrim

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #1 on: 20 May 2023, 09:24 pm »
No easy answer. Some dacs have excellent usb inputs that can be superior to i2s. I2s is from my experience always better than psdif aes and optical.

tug

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #2 on: 20 May 2023, 09:30 pm »
Thank you!
I hear benchmark and bryston are transparent, do you know of others?

Hafgrim

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #3 on: 20 May 2023, 09:32 pm »
If so, what would be the most transparent, least colored option for streamer and DAC?
Thank you

You shouldn't chase after a certain dac just because it has i2s. There is a lot of mediocre dacs out there with i2s and there are a lot of excellent dacs that don't accept i2s. The best dacs I've heard never had an i2s input.

A lot of Chinese manufacturers will for instance slap in an i2s input just for the marketing.

WGH

Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #4 on: 20 May 2023, 09:33 pm »
Probably depends more on the music resolution, what era it was recorded in and the DAC than whatever the interface between DAC and streamer. USB works just fine and can transmit any hi-res sampling rate available.

The Bryston BDA-3.14 DAC / Streamer / Digital Preamplifier has "a high quality streamer internally connected with I²S - the most accurate digital interconnection method currently available."
https://bryston.com/digital-audio/bda-314/

What will you be streaming? Qobuz has the best quality but is still only 24bit/192 kHz.

External upsampling will determine what DAC you buy too, a DAC like the HoloAudio can do super hi-res over I²S.


Quote
I hear benchmark and bryston are transparent

Best audition DACs at home. I have heard Benchmark DACs in a few systems, the sound was clean and sterile, not a fun or relaxing listening experience. The Benchmark is an attention grabber, a "WOW, listen to this, I can hear everything." A good DAC to use at audio shows to impress the rubes for 10 minutes. And then the novelty wears off.

Bingenito

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2023, 09:34 pm »
Buying a DAC based on input types is like buying speakers based on a spec sheet. Some will say that all DACs sound the same and those people either have horrible rooms, system setup, unresolving speakers and or are deaf.

Assuming the above does not apply to you test how dacs sound within your budget and buy preowned to save at least 50%. Spoiler alert buying based in sinad spec is also highly flawed and your ears will quickly confirm this.

Generally even if a dac has i2s I prefer AES/ EBU the exception being one time on a terminator II with i2s over ethernet which sounded much more natural than i2s over hdmi and I tried many hdmi cables ranging from $15-$850 pure silver.

Hafgrim

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #6 on: 20 May 2023, 09:35 pm »
Thank you!
I hear benchmark and bryston are transparent, do you know of others?

Never heard the bryston, but the benchmark dac is detailed, transparent but flat and uninspiring.

Edit* I listened to the benchmark dac3

tug

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #7 on: 20 May 2023, 09:37 pm »
I am using Qobuz. I am more interested in the original music than a colorized version

tug

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2023, 10:29 pm »
if the music comes out flat and uninspiring, I want to know it. I dont want my dac or streamer or speakers to make it something it wasn't

WGH

Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #9 on: 20 May 2023, 11:14 pm »
if the music comes out flat and uninspiring, I want to know it. I dont want my dac or streamer or speakers to make it something it wasn't

Have you experienced a modern DAC in your system? The current selection of high end DAC's excel at resolving low level information which include spatial cues and the recorded echos. Without low level resolution the sound becomes flat and uninspiring instead of three dimensional. The recording isn't colorized, a modern DAC is still accurately reproducing everything on the recording, just more than what you are used to hearing.

The Benchmark DAC's upsample everything, which you equate to colorizing.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/13127453-asynchronous-upsampling-to-110-khz

A non-oversampling DAC by definition does not oversample so should be the most pure if that is what you are after. But there are trade offs too so listen to these DACs and see if you like the sound.
Check out the Denafrips Pontus II 12th DAC. It is R-2R non-oversampling DAC with I²S if you need it. Gets rave reviews and is affordable.

The Pontus II 12th DAC also oversamples in the background so you get the best of both worlds, untouched sound(ing) with less noise and distortion.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185525.msg1945439#msg1945439

tug

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #10 on: 20 May 2023, 11:22 pm »
Have you experienced a modern DAC in your system? The current selection of high end DAC's excel at resolving low level information which include spatial cues and the recorded echos. Without low level resolution the sound becomes flat and uninspiring instead of three dimensional. The recording isn't colorized, a modern DAC is still accurately reproducing everything on the recording, just more than what you are used to hearing.

The Benchmark DAC's upsample everything, which you equate to colorizing.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/13127453-asynchronous-upsampling-to-110-khz

A non-oversampling DAC by definition does not oversample so should be the most pure if that is what you are after. But there are trade offs too so listen to these DACs and see if you like the sound.
Check out the Denafrips Pontus II 12th DAC. It is R-2R non-oversampling DAC with I²S if you need it. Gets rave reviews and is affordable.

The Pontus II 12th DAC also oversamples in the background so you get the best of both worlds, untouched sound(ing) with less noise and distortion.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185525.msg1945439#msg1945439

Awesome!! Thank you so much!! I will look into it!

tug

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #11 on: 20 May 2023, 11:42 pm »
Have you experienced a modern DAC in your system? The current selection of high end DAC's excel at resolving low level information which include spatial cues and the recorded echos. Without low level resolution the sound becomes flat and uninspiring instead of three dimensional. The recording isn't colorized, a modern DAC is still accurately reproducing everything on the recording, just more than what you are used to hearing.

The Benchmark DAC's upsample everything, which you equate to colorizing.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/13127453-asynchronous-upsampling-to-110-khz

A non-oversampling DAC by definition does not oversample so should be the most pure if that is what you are after. But there are trade offs too so listen to these DACs and see if you like the sound.
Check out the Denafrips Pontus II 12th DAC. It is R-2R non-oversampling DAC with I²S if you need it. Gets rave reviews and is affordable.

The Pontus II 12th DAC also oversamples in the background so you get the best of both worlds, untouched sound(ing) with less noise and distortion.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185525.msg1945439#msg1945439

Any recommendations on streamers?

JackD

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #12 on: 21 May 2023, 12:19 am »
If I2S is a pre-requisite then the Holo Red is you best bet.  Simple to set up and works with a large range of I2S configurations including Denafrips.  No playback software included so you chose your own UPnP compatible software.

mlundy57

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #13 on: 21 May 2023, 12:20 am »
The first thing you need to do is determine your budget. The PS Audio DirectStream MK2 DAC is ecxeptional but it has an MSRP of $8,000. That’s without the matching streamer which isn’t out yet

My second choice would be a used PS Audio DirectStream DAC MK1 with the Bridge II network streamer card installed. You could probably pick one of these up for around $3,500.

You can spend a lot more out a lot less.

Knowing what price bracket you are working with will allow more accurate recommendations.

mlundy57

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #14 on: 21 May 2023, 12:28 am »
If I2S is a pre-requisite then the Holo Red is you best bet.  Simple to set up and works with a large range of I2S configurations including Denafrips.  No playback software included so you chose your own UPnP compatible software.

I found the Red to be anything but simple to set up but that is because the manual is terrible. If you get one of those, ask here or some other Holo Red user group for instructions that actually work.

As for performance, I found the USB input from the computer to the DirectStream MK2 DAC to have superior sound quality to the I2S input from the Red. This observation is only applicable to the MK2 DAC as I didn’t try the Red with any other DAC

JackD

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #15 on: 21 May 2023, 12:48 am »
Mike

I saw your comments over on the PSA forum about this but that hasn't been my experience or that off most users.  I haven't tried I2S as my Holo DAC's prefer USB and the Aqua prefers AES and in those scenarios the Red was easy to set up and sounds great.  I've got a transformer modified Mk I but haven't tried the Red with it.  Since the Mk 2's USB input is now reported to be the equal of the I2S input by owners and even Ted you might want to try the Red to the Mk 2 via USB.  I also suspect that with I2S you are running into the pre-emphasis issue reported by several users that only happens with the two DS DACs.  A couple of guys found that by changing to another brand of I2S cable the problem went away so it appears to be a combination of the DAC and particular cables that cause the issue. I compared the Red directly against the four times more expensive Aries G1 and while the G1 did win out in the end is was much closer than I would have thought possible.  So see if you can borrow a good quality shorter USB cable and try the Red that way. 

As to the manual agree it's not great but is pretty much the norm for those translated from Chinese.  There are now as you said enough owners ought there, especially on Head-Fi, to help a new owner through any setup issues.

mkrawcz

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #16 on: 21 May 2023, 12:51 am »
I have a Holo Red imaged with RoPieeeXL and I find the I2S to be exceptional. The important thing is to make sure the pinout switches are set to match the input of the dac you’re using.

JackD

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #17 on: 21 May 2023, 12:59 am »
Apparently with the two Directstream DAC's even if the pinout for I2S is correct certain cables are causing the HDCD pre-emphasis to kick in and it's hit or miss so far as to which cable will do it.

mlundy57

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #18 on: 21 May 2023, 01:42 am »
Mike

I saw your comments over on the PSA forum about this but that hasn't been my experience or that off most users.  I haven't tried I2S as my Holo DAC's prefer USB and the Aqua prefers AES and in those scenarios the Red was easy to set up and sounds great.  I've got a transformer modified Mk I but haven't tried the Red with it.  Since the Mk 2's USB input is now reported to be the equal of the I2S input by owners and even Ted you might want to try the Red to the Mk 2 via USB.  I also suspect that with I2S you are running into the pre-emphasis issue reported by several users that only happens with the two DS DACs.  A couple of guys found that by changing to another brand of I2S cable the problem went away so it appears to be a combination of the DAC and particular cables that cause the issue. I compared the Red directly against the four times more expensive Aries G1 and while the G1 did win out in the end is was much closer than I would have thought possible.  So see if you can borrow a good quality shorter USB cable and try the Red that way. 

As to the manual agree it's not great but is pretty much the norm for those translated from Chinese.  There are now as you said enough owners ought there, especially on Head-Fi, to help a new owner through any setup issues.

Jack,

The biggest problem I had with setting up the Red was following the manual instructions in the order given. Unfortunately, those instructions were to download the image file, format the TF card, then burn the image file to the TF card. When I did that the TF card bricked. It would have been very helpful if before saying anything about downloading an image file, the instructions said the included TF card already had the operating system on it so all you had to do was insert it into the unit. Then have all the information about downloading, formatting, and burning in a separate section on if you want to use a different OS than the one provided.

If the USB input of the MK2 is equal to the I2S input, it would seem going straight from the computer to the USB input would give better results as there would be one less piece of equipment, the streamer, in the chain. Then again, there is the argument that the computer is noisy and isolating it from the DAC by going over Ethernet would result in better sound but the MK2's USB input is galvanically isolated so that shouldn't be an issue and my server is running Fidelizer 8 pro in Purist mode configured as a network player. I need to try the Red to the USB input and compare that to the computer to the USB input though that will introduce an additional time delay between the comparisons since I will have to physically switch the USB cables. My head hurts  :?

The best advice I have is to audition streamers and DACs, or streamer/DAC combos like the Lumin D2, that have a reasonable return policy. That way your ears will tell you what you like. Something else to think about is that components from the same manufacturer tend to work well together which is not always the case when combining products from different manufacturers.

JackD

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Re: i2s streamer and dac
« Reply #19 on: 21 May 2023, 01:57 am »
Mike

I agree that if your server is built and optimized to the level to be superior to the "entry" level Red in terms of power supply and parts then what you have found is valid.  Not really sure the Red is aimed at people with that level of dedicated server.  If you have a second comparable USB cable to try it both ways then I really wouldn't try to switch back and forth but rather just try each combination for a few days with the same sample of cuts and see which one "feels" right to you.  Don't think there is a wrong choice whichever way it goes.  I just did that with the Red vs the Zen Stream with LPS and while I can't tell you in technical terms which one was/is better I knew which one sounded the most right in the system it will be used in.  Also discovered that changing the OS in the Red from the supplied one to MoOde Player changed the sound of the Red for the better.  The only thing with MoOde is that it only recognizes I2S and USB as output choices. Other people have tried and preferred RoPiee instead of Red OS.  Apparently all variations on the same core code.  When Scottie over on the PSA forum tried to use the RAL I2S cable he also found it dull but when he switched to the Pink Faun cable his opinion changed so something in the cable was causing an issue and others have had similar issues with other brands of I2S cables.