Adding surround to an existing 2 channel setup

Tweaker · « **on:** 17 Apr 2005, 04:53 pm »

First of all, please excuse my ignorance about such things, I am fairly knowledgeable about all things 2 channel but home theater is something I have really not been interested in, untill now. I would appreciate any advice on how to transform my 2-channel setup to surround while still being able to bypass for two channel only music listening. There used to be a few add on processors with amplification built in for the surround channels that could be run through the tape loop (if I remember right) but I've not been able to find anything in my searches except for receivers or preamp processors. I'm starting to think this is an either/or situation for me, that I'm not going to be able to have both without giving up, at the very least, my beloved Marsh preamp.

John Ashman · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 05:05 pm »

That would take a complete listing of your existing gear.

Tweaker · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 05:12 pm »

Marsh P2000 preamp, two Van Alstine Omegastar power amps (vertical biamping),Toshiba SD-2700 DVD/transport, Behringer Ultracurve also being used as a DAC, and a pair of VMPS RM2's.

John Ashman · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 05:53 pm »

If it were me, I'd get a Meridian G68J and 3-5 RM1s or RM2s set up with a projector. Unless VMPS has a great center speaker that matches well (hard to do with a quasi-line array or ribbon speaker). The Meridian has room EQ, so maybe that obsoletes the Behringer. If the Behringer has digital out, you could slip in as a digital processor before the Meridian. The Meridian should be more transparent than your existing preamp with digital sources and about as transparent with analog ones, if not moreso. The Fosgate FAPT preamps are audiophile caliber, equal or surpassing many very good stereo preamps, I've heard Anthems are very good to. All should allow for a seamless subwoofer if that's needed.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 05:54 pm »

The Marsh pre does NOT have an HT Bypass, right? I wonder if that could be installed? I suspect there are a number of people here who could help you with that - do you have a "spare" set of inputs? Any aversion to modding the Marsh?

Just a thought - my custom built Hagerman Clarinet has an HT Bypass, and it solves this issue perfectly - my B&K pre/pro feeds the Bypass inputs, and I flip the switch to go from 2 channel through the Hagerman, to 5 channel, through the B&K, retaining the use of my 2 channel amp, and speaker cables, and main speakers etc.

Useful addition to any loved preamp!

Tweaker · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 06:10 pm »

The Marsh does not have a bypass and I do have an adversion to modding it.
I should also have said that I would like to keep the cost modest! $6500.00 for a processor alone is about 10 times more than I would be willing to pay! Yikes!
I'm not out to put together a state of the art home theater system.
However I appreciate the input.

Rich Carlson · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 06:28 pm »

Here's my advice on how to do this for a modest cost: find a decent home theater receiver with preamp outputs. Run the front channel through these pre-outs to an input of your existing preamp, with your high-quality 2-channel sources connected to the preamp just as they are now. Adjust levels on the HT receiver so that everything is in balance when the volume on your pre is set to some easy-to-reproduce level (e.g., 12 o'clock). The HT receiver will include the amplification for center and surround channels, and you will just not be using the front channel power amps of the receiver.

This is how I have my home theater system setup; feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

zybar · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 06:35 pm »

Get a Denon 3805 and follow the instructions Rich provided.

You will get very good HT sound with a minimal investment.

George

Tweaker · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 06:44 pm »

Rich,
Thank-you! That sounds perfect.

John Casler · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 06:44 pm »

Looks like this was already mentioned. That will teach me to start a reply and then answer the phone and talk for an hour

Quote from: Tweaker

First of all, please excuse my ignorance about such things, I am fairly knowledgeable about all things 2 channel but home theater is something I have really not been interested in, untill now. I would appreciate any advice on how to transform my 2-channel setup to surround while still being able to bypass for two channel only music listening. There used to be a few add on processors with amplification built in for the surround channels that could be run through the tape loop (if I remember right) but I've n ...

Simply purchase a pre/pro or AVR of your choice that offers 6/8 channel pre outs and run the front L&R to an "aux" input of your current preamp.

Set your current pramp to slightly less than the absolute loudest dial setting you will ever use and make note of that level. (12:00 or whatever)

Then run your pre/pro/AVR channel level set up program to set channel levels.

When you wish to listen to HT, select "aux" on your pre/pro/AVR, preset the volume on your 2 channel preamp and you're there.

Tweaker · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 07:08 pm »

Does the phantom center channel feature work ok?
I am wondering because I understand it's important to have the center timbre matched to the mains but that would require me to purchase a VMPS 626R, at the very least. (trying to do this on the cheap).

byteme · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 07:20 pm »

Quote from: Rich Carlson

Here's my advice on how to do this for a modest cost: find a decent home theater receiver with preamp outputs. Run the front channel through these pre-outs to an input of your existing preamp, with your high-quality 2-channel sources connected to the preamp just as they are now. Adjust levels on the HT receiver so that everything is in balance when the volume on your pre is set to some easy-to-reproduce level (e.g., 12 o'clock). The HT receiver will include the amplification for center and surround chann ...

This is essentially how I've got mine set up as well. I use a Denon 3802 and Sherwood 5 channel amp for power rather than the Denon, but it's easy to mark the volume on your Marsh. I did it with a small piece of tape on my deHavilland. Once you get there you just need to pick speakers and a sub and you're home free with the best of both worlds. Does running the mains through different amplification and preamp than the center and surrounds affect things? Sure, but I'll compromise HT for better 2 channel any day.

Depending on how much you want to spend and how good you want the HT to sound you could look for an inexpensive HT Pre/Pro (Outlaw 950 for example) and get a 3 or 5 channel amp depending if you go with 5.1 or 7.1. Something like that would most likely be $2k or less. For about $600-800 you can get a good HT receiver and it'll do pretty much the same thing. You have a better chance of the reciever having all the latest decoding chips but the amplification won't be as good. For that matter you could probably get a $600-800 receiver and us it for the pre/pro and still get a 3-5 channel amp! The beauty part of doing it that way is you can still use the reciever and get all the HT benefit now and still "upgrade" later to an outboard amp if you ever decide to do so.

As with the others, if you have any questions feel free to contact me!

thayerg · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Apr 2005, 07:21 pm »

Buy used. Try to keep audio signals in the digital domain, especially if you are routing them through the pre/pro. The center channel in a HT does a lot of the work so don't skimp on amplification.

If you can't afford a new Meridian the older 500 or 800 series aren't exactly dreadful and in fact they handle two channel with aplomb. 500 series aren't too user-friendly for initial setup but once they are dialed in the remote control is very spouse-friendly. The 565 pre/pro lets you select digital or analog output for each pair of speakersin the HT matrix which gives you flexibility, and there's a digital bypass. And their customer support is very good and even seems to extend into the second hand market.

I'd also recommend a Rotel multi-channel power amp over a Denon receiver, but that's because I've never heard a Denon amp I thought sounded good. That's probably not such a drawback for HT use though. Not all Rotel HT equipment is admired but the amps are ok.

The Avia test disc will help you tweak your display and audio settings and that makes a profound difference.

Happy watching--home theaters are definitely worth installing!

mcgsxr · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Apr 2005, 12:00 am »

OK, modding the Marsh is out, cool - others have done a great job of laying out how to use a receiver with pre-outs to achieve roughly the same thing.

I would have a good look at the Pioneer Elite gear, and for less dough, the Yamaha receivers should flesh out HT for you pretty well.

I use Phantom Centre at the moment, and will absolutely add a centre channel when the budget allows - I feel that I am missing some of the experience, not having a centre speaker.

Some love it that way, mind you!

Rich Carlson · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Apr 2005, 10:26 am »

Quote from: Tweaker

Does the phantom center channel feature work ok?
I am wondering because I understand it's important to have the center timbre matched to the mains but that would require me to purchase a VMPS 626R, at the very least. (trying to do this on the cheap).

If your current L/R speakers produce a good center image - and I'm guessing they do - phantom center channel should be just fine. You will find some movies for which having a true center channel helps significantly, but not that many in my experience.

TIC · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Apr 2005, 02:50 am »

For a great value in an HT receiver with pre-outs for all channels, check out the Pioneer VSX-1014TX. I is basically the exact same model as one of the Pioneer Elites, minus gold plated jacks on the back. It is THX-Select certified and it would not look out of place in a high-end setup.

I just bought on from J&R for $349! I've owned lots of HT receivers, including some priced in the $2500+range. I'm not saying the Pioneer VSX-1014TX is THAT good, but it is a great value when compared to all reasonably priced units I've used. It also has MCACC automatic surround calibration, which is really cool!

I've used a 2-channel system combined with an HT receiver as discussed earlier. It works great and has zero ill-effects on your 2-channel rig since the HT receiver doesn't even need to be turned on when you are listening to your 2-channel setup.

Enjoy,

TIC

Tweaker · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Apr 2005, 03:07 am »

TIC,
Thanks for the tip on the receiver. Sounds worth checking out. I've also been curious about the JVC and Panasonic digital amp receivers everyone seems to be so jazzed about.
I'm very relieved to find out that I can make this work without messing with my beloved 2-channel set-up!
Jon

TIC · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Apr 2005, 03:26 am »

Jon,

Most of the inexpensive digital receivers don't have pre-outs. The new Sony ES S-Master Pro based digital receivers do have pre-outs, but they are significantly more expensive.

The Pioneer is nice for its MCACC automatic calibration, good on-screen programming and good sound. It also is a much better looking unit than most of the inexpensive digital units (IMHO). It is pretty much user friendly too. I find it very easy to use vs. some of the other receivers I've owned.

The Pioneer is probably not as good sounding for 2-channel music, but it is very good for HT (IMHO). Considering I don't use my HT receiver for critical music listening, I'm perfectly happy with the Pioneer VSX-1014TX. It is one of the least expensive receivers I've owned, and one of the most enjoyable, considering sonics, ergonomics, looks, etc.

Enjoy,

TIC

bubba966 · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Apr 2005, 03:45 am »

The 1014TX is a damn nice receiver for the $ as has just been pointed out (it's almost the same as the Pioneer Elite VSX-52TX for half the $

). I installed one in a friend's setup recently and was rather pleased with it. It's got a few things that my $3K receiver doesn't have.

The 1014 has been discontinued though, so finding one might not be so easy. But I think the replacement 1015TX should be about by now. And I'm sure one can be found for around $400 or so as the 1014 was possible to find for about that much when it was a current product.

It also won't have the nasty little sping post connectors that the cheap little digital receivers have. That right there is a big bonus, not to mention it'll have more options for ins/outs & video switching than the JVC's & Panny's.

TIC · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Apr 2005, 04:19 am »

$349 from OneCall! J&R looks to be sold out. Here is a link to the OnceCall listing:

http://ww3.onecall.com/PID_24628.htm

Here's another for $352 Shipping included! But, I don't know this vendor...

http://store.yahoo.com/pricesrite/vsx1014txk.html

Enjoy,

TIC