[Hantra]

All:

You know how you are looking for something, and have absolutely no reason to rush yourself into a purchase, but you want to rush anyway?

I am there with speakers right now.  I need a full range speaker that will work in a 185 square foot room, and will be as neutral as possible, while still having ability to convey emotion.  I place emotion above neutrality, and everything else except for room sizing.

The best speaker I have heard that will do this is the Wilson Sophia.  I can't buy a $12K speaker.  My max is going to be around $6,000 on this one.  

I am very close to a sweet deal on some Talon Ravens, but the problem is, I have never heard a Talon.  It may be the closest I can get to the Sophia for my budget, but then again, I may hate it.    So. . .  

A friend has some Piega P-10's for sale, but I don't think I want those.  I have heard the P5 Ltd., and it was soooo extremely bright!     I thought I felt some blood trickling from my ears.  So, I don't expect the P-10 to be much different, but I may be shorting myself just b/c I can hear them in my room.

What do you guys think I should do?  What should I make an attempt to listen to?  Should I buy a speaker unheard if I am sure I can move out laterally from it?

I don't want to get back into the position I was in on the Chameleons.  

Ohhh, BTW, I will be driving said speakers with either a McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe, or an Aloia 13.01.  Scott's DAC, and a 7700S, with a Kora Equinoxe pre.

thx!


B

[Tyson]

VMPS RM40 with new tweeter and TRT caps.  That was easy

[JoshK]

Do you have anything against VMPS? The RM40's are a step above the Sophia's IMO in just about every way that I can describe.  They are big though.

[BikeWNC]

I'm in the same need for speakers in the not so near future.  My room is a bit larger than B's at 225 sq ft (16x14).  Wouldn't the Rm40s be just too much for a room that size?  I'm leaning towards monitors with a pair of subs to fill in the low end.

Andy

[jackman]

Will the Excelleray's work in that room?   I love my Ellis 1801's also.  For your budget, you could get the 1801's and some cool VMPS subs (or one sub) with amps.  I think that would be a very nice setup.

Just a suggestion....

[Hantra]

All good suggestions.  The RM-40 is massive!  Wouldn't it overload my room?

I am trying to avoid ribbons b/c I have an aversion to them.  The Piega I heard was horribly bright, and the only other ribbons I have heard are Brad's Excelarray's, which I like a lot, but I am not sure are my cup of tea.  Again, it could be the ribbon. . .  

I dunno.  I will have to take my amps over to Brad's place soon and see what they would do in my own system. . .

Andy, what are you getting rid of?  Can't remember what you had. . .  From hearing subs + monitors right before I heard the Sophias, I think it is so much of a better thing to have the bass integrated within the speaker.  It is hard to simulate in my experience. . .  but my experience is very limited.  Which is why I ask for you guys' opinions!  

Thx!

B

[BikeWNC]

B,

I have VA Mozarts, which are a warm, musical speaker.  They play down to 35 hz in my room.  I have the GR Criterions on the way for an audition.  I prefer a bit of warmth in my system, though it need not come from the speakers.  I also lean towards the musical side of the aisle as opposed to the hyper detailed approach.  These are system synery goals. I would like a more full range speaker, but I'm afraid the size would be too much for my current room.

Andy

[Hantra]

So you're not happy with the Mozart b/c it needs to be more full range?

I am interested to see how the GR compares. .

B

[BikeWNC]

The bottom line is, I don't know.  I have a Rel sub well intergrated with the mains, which gets me down to 20 hz.  I've kind of worked around the intergration issues of my Tact RCS 2.0. Living where I do, there are no stores to hang around in to hear a variety of speakers.  I even thought of picking up a pair of used B&W N802s on audiogon, but I'm leary of metal dome tweeters.  Perhaps I shouldn't be.  The bottom line is I need to get somewhere I can hear some, before I plunk down any cash.  Thanks to Danny at GR Research for the demo pair of Criterions, it's alot cheaper to pay shipping than 400 miles worth of gas.

Andy

[Tyson]

Here ya go:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ddspkrfull&1050414837&demo&3&4&

[KeithR]

Hantra-
i just got finished auditioning everything under 15k practically.  I ended up with Avantgarde Solos (on order).  Give them a listen...easily the most coherant speaker I have heard with a naturalness which I thought the Sophias didn't have (i was very, very close to buying sophias).  They also aren't "horny" so to speak!  I also have a lot of experience with the Khorus Xs, and know you can get a used pair for <7k.  Great speaker too, but too big for my space.

Also just heard teh new Talon Firebird...wow...that's a damn good speaker.  My problem with Talon is resale hence why I would have picekd the Sophias over them.

Cheers,

keithR

[Hantra]

Keith:

What kind of deal did you get on Solos, if you don't mind telling. . .?

At the least, tell me what you like about the Solo vs. the Sophia.  The solo certainly would be an easier fit.  No amp needed.  Not that big. . .

Thanks a lot!!

B

[jackman]

Tyson, that's a single speaker.

J

[Brad]

Geez those Avantgarde's are pricy.....  

Gorgeous, and I bet they sound gorgeous, too.
Gotta love the Basshorns:

http://www.avantgarde-usa.com/basshorns.html

[JoshK]

too avantgarde for my tastes....  

[Kishore]

At CES,  besides VMPS I liked Alon Lotus Elite, Solos, and bowled over by FAL . Solos come with amps in built so you just need your source+pre-and they are like 'bookshelf horns' so not as bad/big as the pic above  

Keith, let us know your impressions when you get these babies.

Cheers,
Kishore

[John Casler]

I am trying to avoid ribbons b/c I have an aversion to them. The Piega I heard was horribly bright, and the only other ribbons I have heard are Brad's Excelarray's, which I like a lot, but I am not sure are my cup of tea. Again, it could be the ribbon. . .

First let me say I am a VMPS dealer so what I suggest must be tempered with that in mind.

Second I am also an RM40 owner and might be able to offer some information that could be helpful.

Brian's ribbons are rather different than most and have performance capabilities in the dynamics and frequency response range beyond most others.

Because a ribbon has the reduced inertia of its low mass the clarity, detail and resolving power "can" be brighter, or even too bright on some speakers with some electronics.

BUT....

The VMPS ribbons, both mids and highs have pots to allow you to tailor the proportion of mids to highs, and mids and highs to the Low Frequencies.

This allows you to adjust to the electronics, the room, the set up, your personal hearing abililties and personal listening preferences.

Now is the RM40 too big for your room?  185 sf is just a little bit smaller than 1/4 a racquetball court (200sf).  I think it would fit and offer you the sonic thrills you are looking for if set up properly.

My latest "pet cut" is the 1812 Overture (Deutch Gramaphone - Feilder - Boston Pops) Today I switched cables to some excellent Cardas that I had lying around and I am stunned.  While a poor man's system to be sure, it grows more formidible by the day. (And this is a recording that is probably 30 years old!!!)

The ability of these speakers to resolve "inner detail" is in the "you have to hear this to beleive it" category.

The soundstage is recreated perfectly in size, width and depth of 7th row center.  Each and every section is exactly where it is supposed to be and when the violin and cello sections play their intertwined melodys the clarity with which you can hear the sections and even the individual instruments is enthralling. When the Harp offers its totally different sound, and when back in the back, you even hear this incredibly crisp and detailed tamborine you just can't beleive it.  

Hearing the whole orchestra playing at very loud levels and having absolutley no listening fatique is also something I have never experienced with a speaker.  

I only wish you lived in LA so you could stop by and take a listen, and save youself a lot of money.  

Hantra-
i just got finished auditioning everything under 15k practically. I ended up with Avantgarde Solos (on order). Give them a listen...easily the most coherant speaker I have heard with a naturalness which I thought the Sophias didn't have (i was very, very close to buying sophias). They also aren't "horny" so to speak! I also have a lot of experience with the Khorus Xs, and know you can get a used pair for <7k. Great speaker too, but too big for my space.

Hey Keith,

I just saw you are from Los Angeles too.  Did you audition the RM40s?

If you ever want to hear the RM40s please let me know.  I'd like to hear your impressions compared to the Avantgarde speakers you have on order.  

Please post or call if you have the time and inclination.

Anyhow I've beaten the VMPS drum (probably too much) enough, but I am still getting excited about these darn speakers and I don't even have the FST version yet.  Sorry for being so long winded.

Regards,
 
John Casler
 
VMPS LA CA USA
SUMMIT Audio Video
800-320-6884
bioforce.inc@gte.net
[/quote]

[KeithR]

Hantra-

No, I did not pay retail of course.  As I believe you have no local dealer, email me off line.  keith.e.rochelli@citigroup.com

Regarding the Solos vs. Sophia--the Sophia is just not as coherant of a speaker, which is my beef with so many designs.  I hate being able to pick out different driveers with different instruments, etc.  Dynaudios have a crossover that is seamless (my old 1.3SEs) and was the reason i was attracted to them.  After I sold them, i was set to buy Ann 25s, but hate the finish.  The Solos just do so many things right, and in normal rooms.  They are designed to be placed close to walls, but are ok 5 or 6 ft out.  They have built in active eqs so you can tune to your room.  They do not require massive room treatment as I feel the Sophias go, as the horn design prevents a lot of first reflection problems.   I actually just purchased the new Wadia 861ix, which I am going to A/B against my Cary SLP98/306 rig now.  If the Wadia works well direct, well then I may be set.  That said, I also want to use these for recording dj stuff, so will keep the pre around.  I hear from others that a tube pre is good for AGs, so we will see.


My other criteria for speakers was dynamics/soundstage and midrange.  Vocals are just there on the Solos, and the dynamics of course being horns are there.  I haven't heard a speaker that has the dynamics these things do.  I can't wait to play some thunderous classical, heavy techno, or even classic Zep on these puppies.  However, they don't beam at you as some horn designs do.  In fact, several people argue the Solo is the best Avantgarde yet....

The Sophia has a touch more bass, but the Solo is no slouch with 12" drivers helping out.  30hz is the rating I believe, which is plenty for me.  The Wilson may image slightly better, but I find that recordings/rooms affect imaging the most, and that may be at fault in my demos rather than the speaker.  The Wilsons also require more power than most think, and I had Cub IIs before, so I was very familiar with the sound.  That said, the Sophias are a superior speaker to Cubs and even W/P 6s in that Dave Wilson finally got coherancy much better in the new line.  The Sophias probably also do a bit "outside the speaker" soundstaging better...although this isn't of huge importance to me.

To sum up, these are very different designs, and once you hear the horns, they just seem to walk over many things I have heard.  Is there better?  Sure, but I didn't want to spend 20k.

Feel free to email me offline with more specific questions...i'm rambling here.

John,

Yes, actually I have heard JoshKs RM40s.  I like the speaker, but it doesn't fit in my room, and doesn't fit my decor at all.  The blue metallic horns seem to do me better sizewise.  I was quite impressed, although still thought the sweet spot was small.  I hear Joshs new room makes this better however.  I would love to bring the Solos over though, and we could do a shootout of sorts?  Or just crack open a few beers and have some fun with both designs!  I hope to get them in the next two weeks, and will burn them in for 200hrs before though.  I hear AGs are a nightmare breakin wise.  I live in Bev Hills Adj area by Robertson...


Cheers,

KeithR


PS. I saw the basshorns at the NYC AG store, but didn't get to hear them.  With the Trios, that is an awe-inspiring setup!

[John Casler]

Yes, actually I have heard JoshKs RM40s. I like the speaker, but it doesn't fit in my room, and doesn't fit my decor at all. The blue metallic horns seem to do me better sizewise. I was quite impressed, although still thought the sweet spot was small. I hear Joshs new room makes this better however. I would love to bring the Solos over though, and we could do a shootout of sorts? Or just crack open a few beers and have some fun with both designs! I hope to get them in the next two weeks, and will burn them in for 200hrs before though. I hear AGs are a nightmare breakin wise. I live in Bev Hills Adj area by Robertson...

Keith,

Cool, you're practically my neighbor.  I'm on Beverly Glen at SM Blvd.

The Solos look like something we could have some fun with.  I'm not familiar with Josh's set up, but the mine is nearfeild and rather open.

I know what you mean regarding the sweet spot, but I find that gives me the translation of the original recorded event without the room interatction a more dispersive speaker creates.

But that could be a quality to listen for in the comparison.

Yeah pile up the hours on those babies and we'll light them up and see how their qualities compare.

I can't wait to play some thunderous classical, heavy techno, or even classic Zep on these puppies

Sounds like we like some of the same music, (actually I like it all) but I think the 1812 Overture must be on the list.

Let me know when they are broken in.

Regards,
 
John Casler
 
VMPS LA CA USA
SUMMIT Audio Video
800-320-6884
bioforce.inc@gte.net
http://my.register.com/summitaudiovideo.com/index.html

[CE]

All:

You know how you are looking for something, and have absolutely no reason to rush yourself into a purchase, but you want to rush anyway?

I am there with speakers right now.  I need a full range speaker that will work in a 185 square foot room, and will be as neutral as possible, while still having ability to convey emotion.  I place emotion above neutrality, and everything else except for room sizing.

The best speaker I have heard that will do this is the Wilson Sophia.  I can't buy a $12K speaker.  My max is going to be around $6,000 on this one.  

I am very close to a sweet deal on some Talon Ravens, but the problem is, I have never heard a Talon.  It may be the closest I can get to the Sophia for my budget, but then again, I may hate it.    So. . .  

A friend has some Piega P-10's for sale, but I don't think I want those.  I have heard the P5 Ltd., and it was soooo extremely bright!     I thought I felt some blood trickling from my ears.  So, I don't expect the P-10 to be much different, but I may be shorting myself just b/c I can hear them in my room.

What do you guys think I should do?  What should I make an attempt to listen to?  Should I buy a speaker unheard if I am sure I can move out laterally from it?

I don't want to get back into the position I was in on the Chameleons.  

Ohhh, BTW, I will be driving said speakers with either a McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe, or an Aloia 13.01.  Scott's DAC, and a 7700S, with a Kora Equinoxe pre.

thx!


B

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