How does Danny place the speakers

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NoahH

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How does Danny place the speakers
« on: 21 Aug 2022, 12:05 am »
Edit for folks jumping in from AC at large: this is about open baffle speaker placement, not box speaker placement, and is not soliciting about basics of speaker placement.

Hey - tagging Danny himself here.

I see your listening room in the background of your videos, and have heard you talk about show placement effort a lot, but I don't know what your starting point is with Xtremes and subs is. How far to the walls are the speakers in your room? Is the black material we can see heavily absorbative, or more aesthetic?

I am still struggling in placement, and feelike the combination of my box speaker experience and the difficulty of moving 100-300lb speakers is keeping me from getting it dialed in, and would love your starting info.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: 22 Aug 2022, 12:21 pm by NoahH »

Early B.

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #1 on: 21 Aug 2022, 12:17 am »
Yeah, Danny should do a video or two that walks us through his speaker setup process, progressing from beginner to advanced setup. 

david45

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #2 on: 21 Aug 2022, 10:55 am »
Hey - tagging Danny himself here.

I see your listening room in the background of your videos, and have heard you talk about show placement effort a lot, but I don't know what your starting point is with Xtremes and subs is. How far to the walls are the speakers in your room? Is the black material we can see heavily absorbative, or more aesthetic?

I am still struggling in placement, and feelike the combination of my box speaker experience and the difficulty of moving 100-300lb speakers is keeping me from getting it dialed in, and would love your starting info.

Thanks!


You might want to check out this video:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CyTkwkK8ON0

RonP

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #3 on: 21 Aug 2022, 01:23 pm »

NoahH

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #4 on: 21 Aug 2022, 02:30 pm »
I know and like LOTS. McGowans process is good too. I have used them for box speakers several times.

But the open baffle nature is making the sound change in unexpected ways as I move them, and it feels like the rules of box speakers don't work quite as well.


Early B.

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #5 on: 21 Aug 2022, 02:44 pm »
OK, so after reading this article, basically, everything we think we know about room treatment is wrong?? It appears that room treatment can be unpredictable, no different than anything else you put in a room (furniture, rugs, wall hangings, etc.). On top of that, it seems there's no correct approach to adding treatments because you're at the mercy of your room, the recordings, and your preferences, none of which you have much control over.


On another note, here's a quote from the article supporting what Danny has said countless times with regard to audio reviewers:

"Audio reviewers have an incredibly difficult challenge because they are trying to correlate bench-test instrumentation data with subjective evaluations, which, to a huge extent, are predicated on their listening environment. The speaker, the distance, the size of the room, the reverberation times, and the resonances of the room all have a huge impact on the subjective perception of the sound."


Tyson

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #6 on: 21 Aug 2022, 02:47 pm »
My general rule of thumb is that OBs seem to work best with more space from the front wall.  Side walls are less important so you can place them closer to the side walls. 

OB speakers also have 2 side wall reflection points - one in front of the speaker and one behind the speaker.  I like to put absorbing panels before and after the speaker on the side wall.  At least 4 inches thick is best for the panels. 

NoahH

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #7 on: 21 Aug 2022, 03:41 pm »
My general rule of thumb is that OBs seem to work best with more space from the front wall.  Side walls are less important so you can place them closer to the side walls. 

OB speakers also have 2 side wall reflection points - one in front of the speaker and one behind the speaker.  I like to put absorbing panels before and after the speaker on the side wall.  At least 4 inches thick is best for the panels.

For the sidewall in the back, is it the second reflection of sidewall to front wall that you are optimizing for?

I think this is actually kinda the root of my issue. The v-shape of the baffle means that you are getting some sort of spray out the back with a ton of second reflections from the sidewall and front wall. I think my intuition has been that you needed to not try to treat all that and it was a bit of the design, but as I write that it seems silly.

Are folks doing treatment with ob than box? Any change in absorption to diffraction ratios they think about?

Yet another good rephrasing: where is my intuition from box speakers wrong for OB regarding placement? Tyson called out 'distance to sidewall is less of an issue' and 'additional reflection point' as two - any others?

rockadanny

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #8 on: 21 Aug 2022, 07:46 pm »
Quote
OB speakers also have 2 side wall reflection points - one in front of the speaker and one behind the speaker.  I like to put absorbing panels before and after the speaker on the side wall.
@Tyson - At side wall first reflection points (in front and behind)? Or different distances since they are OB?



Tyson

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #9 on: 21 Aug 2022, 08:39 pm »
@Tyson - At side wall first reflection points (in front and behind)? Or different distances since they are OB?




What I do is figure out the front reflection point (say, 2 feet in front of the speaker on the side wall).  Then I just mirror that distance behind the speaker (2 feet behind the speaker on the side wall, in this example).  There's no math or esoteric theory in that, just trial and error. 

rockadanny

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #10 on: 21 Aug 2022, 09:04 pm »
OK. Thank you @Tyson!  :thumb:

Mariusz Uszynski

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #11 on: 21 Aug 2022, 11:41 pm »
There was a really good speaker placement/setup on Vandersteen website (it works for all brands, I guess), it's bit simular to that YouTube video, that someone posted earlier, perhaps was even easier.I used it once and loved the sound of my system ever since.I browsed their website today and wanted to add the link here, but couldn't find.But it's worth finding it.

Letitroll98

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #12 on: 22 Aug 2022, 10:16 am »
In the Enclosures circle there's a sticky with a multitude of speaker placement guides.

Danny Richie

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #13 on: 22 Aug 2022, 06:29 pm »
I tend to look at the whole thing as distance that the speakers can be apart from one another (depending on the room size) verses listening distance. I tend to like being slight further away from the speakers than they are from each other.

So you wind up with a triangle shape layout of listener and speakers.

I then try to move that triangle as far out into the room as the room will permit.

Jaytor

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #14 on: 22 Aug 2022, 07:01 pm »
When I first set up my room, I was using GIK Absorber/Diffusors behind the speakers - like these: https://gikacoustics.com/product/impression-6inch-bass-trap-diffusor-absorber/. But I felt the sound was deader than I wanted.

I replaced the GIK panels with QRD diffusors from ATS Acoustics. Wow, what a difference these made. The sound is now much more open and airy with a deeper sound stage and more precise imaging.

Early B.

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #15 on: 22 Aug 2022, 10:15 pm »
I tend to look at the whole thing as distance that the speakers can be apart from one another (depending on the room size) verses listening distance. I tend to like being slight further away from the speakers than they are from each other.

So you wind up with a triangle shape layout of listener and speakers.

I then try to move that triangle as far out into the room as the room will permit.

Yeah, I think the speaker placement process is as simple as described here. It may take weeks or months of micro-movements to get it right, though.

There are three other things to keep in mind -- 1) symmetry is good if your room permits it; 2) a component change may require fiddling with speaker placement again; and 3) your listening preferences aren't static. You may decide to tweak the sound by widening or narrowing the imaging through toe-in, for instance.   

RonP

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Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #16 on: 22 Aug 2022, 11:02 pm »
I replaced the GIK panels with QRD diffusors from ATS Acoustics. Wow, what a difference these made. The sound is now much more open and airy with a deeper sound stage and more precise imaging.

Have you compared these QRDs to the Pi Audio Mr T's by any chance? If not, any speculation on how they'd compare?


Jaytor

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #17 on: 23 Aug 2022, 12:07 am »
Have you compared these QRDs to the Pi Audio Mr T's by any chance? If not, any speculation on how they'd compare?

I have not compared them. The Pi Audio diffusors look like they could provide more 2-dimensional diffusion, but not sure if they will have as wide a frequency range.

I have my diffusors positioned a couple inches in front of my front wall since I have windows and curtains that I am "hiding", so I wanted something that I did not have to mount to the wall. The ATS diffusors are made from wood and are very sturdy. Also more expensive  :cry: unfortunately.

Here's my front wall without curtains or current acoustic treatments.



And here's what it looks like now with the diffusors.




SoCalWJS

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #18 on: 23 Aug 2022, 03:45 am »
^^^^^^^

Wow!

 :bowdown: :bowdown:

That looks like the acoustics should be MUCH better! Well done! Hope there has been a noticeable improvement.

Jaytor

Re: How does Danny place the speakers
« Reply #19 on: 23 Aug 2022, 04:16 am »
^^^^^^^

Wow!

 :bowdown: :bowdown:

That looks like the acoustics should be MUCH better! Well done! Hope there has been a noticeable improvement.

Oh, yeah!