[Bioman65]

Educate me please, as this is not my background.  Is it safe to say that a studio, such as Harvest EMI, would ship the sole copy (Master Tape) of let's say Pink Floyds the Wall to someone doing a remaster?  Or do they ship a safety copy, or do they make a copy of the Master and ship that?  I have read that large labels will do simultaneous feeds off the mixing board and create multiple masters at the time of recording.

[rbbert]

Why speculate about something of which you admit you have no real knowledge? 

Look at Analogue Productions.  They claim that 100% of their releases are cut from the original master tapes.  That is why the pressings are very limited to small production runs of a few thousand LPs.  No record label is going to allow a mastering studio to run their original tape enough times to create enough stampers to press, say, 40,000 records.

--Jerome

Aren't we all speculating from our admittedly incomplete knowledge?  Do you know that Analogue Productions has no digital step in their process?

[rbbert]

That isn't quite right, and any studio recording engineer or someone familiar with the process would know that.  I don't know where Steve Guttenburg is getting his information but the source for a master tape is a multitrack.  Multitrack tapes are not finished versions of the content.  They are unmixed.  Only the master tape is mixed and ready to use as a source for production of commercially released content.  You can create more than one mix from the multitracks, but then each would ostensibly be different.  A stereo mix vs. a 5.1 mix.  But since we are talking about vinyl records here we are mainly interested in stereo mixes (and mono).

--Jerome

Well you appear to be wrong here.  First, it is far from clear that all studios and labels use the same terminology.  Second, in the vast majority of cases the mixed down, edited, EQ'ed, perhaps compressed "master" is not used to cut lacquers; a "production master" is copied from this "master" and used to cut lacquers.  There may be many "production master" copies made since each one can only be played so many times before degradation.  Sometimes an additional set of copies (one more analog gen) of this "production master" is made to be used in other countries to cut their LP lacquers.

In addition, there may be multiple "remasters" over time (sometimes at the same time), usually using the production master and applying processing (either digital or analog) to that. 

[jsaliga]

First, it is far from clear that all studios and labels use the same terminology.  Second, in the vast majority of cases the mixed down, edited, EQ'ed, perhaps compressed "master" is not used to cut lacquers; a "production master" is copied from this "master" and used to cut lacquers.  There may be many "production master" copies made since each one can only be played so many times before degradation.  Sometimes an additional set of copies (one more analog gen) of this "production master" is made to be used in other countries to cut their LP lacquers.

Yes, that's a very fair point and one that I was going to add myself later. But I work for a living and have limited time during the day to post on forums.

--Jerome

[newzooreview]

It seems to me that "Mobile Fidelity defrauded their customers" and "Mobile Fidelity products sound good" are not mutually exclusive statements.

The customer should (legally and ethically) be able to rely on the statements and representations of the seller.

Mobile Fidelity built its entire reputation on selling vinyl pressings cut from master tapes. Analogue to analogue. I don't own a record player and have not been a victim of their misleading marketing about their LPs. But integrity matters, and Mobile Fidelity has no integrity.

[jsaliga]

Aren't we all speculating from our admittedly incomplete knowledge?  Do you know that Analogue Productions has no digital step in their process?

I make no claims to be all knowing on this subject and don't have a problem with someone proving me wrong.

Regarding Analogue Productions I can share with you part of an email exchange from about 2 years ago between myself and Chad Kassem, CEO of Analogue Productions, concerning one of his pressings of an RCA Living Stereo LP on 200g vinyl.

Digital was not used in the making of the RCA LSC 2068 that you are asking about.  I even went back to the original mastering engineer to have him respond. He assured us that digital was not used anywhere in the chain.

Now, I think that is a fairly definitive and assertive statement.  While I don't know for fact that no digital step was used (because I wasn't there), I have no reason to doubt Chad and I am not prepared to call him a liar.  So let's just close the book on that ok?

--Jerome

[rbbert]

Even in some very high-end analog oriented Internet groups (e.g., Audionirvana or What's Best Forum) there isn't a huge discussion about fraud, but more along the lines of what has been mentioned here.  Sure, some purchasers are disappointed, but many are more interested in why MoFi might be doing this and how it relates to the sound of the final product, as well as how widespread similar practices might be.  The major labels are of course well known to obfuscate about this kind of information; it has always been hoped that the smaller "audiophile" labels were more transparent.

[jsaliga]

Thanks.  I can definitely understand the reasoning behind that sentiment.  A number of vloggers on Youtube basically said the same thing, they are very disappointed but will still support MoFi.

--Jerome

[Stercom]

Jerome - you're exactly right.  Here is a picture of their literature for their "one-step" process.

[jsaliga]

Here is a link to the copy on the MoFi website that describes in detail their One Step process.

https://mofi.com/pages/technologies#one-step

--Jerome

[rbbert]

I can like a product and criticize the company that made it.  They are not mutually exclusive. 

--Jerome

+1

[maxima95]

"... MFSL engineers begin with the original master tapes and meticulously cut a set of lacquers. ..."

"... every UD1S pressing serves as an immaculate replica of the lacquer sourced directly from the original master tape. ..."

"... First and foremost, we only utilize first generation original master recordings as source material for our releases. ..."

At best, this is reckless; at worst it is disingenuous.

[Stercom]

"... MFSL engineers begin with the original master tapes and meticulously cut a set of lacquers. ..."

"... every UD1S pressing serves as an immaculate replica of the lacquer sourced directly from the original master tape. ..."

"... First and foremost, we only utilize first generation original master recordings as source material for our releases. ..."

At best, this is reckless; at worst it is disingenuous.

Agreed, but at worst its fraud.

[Digi-G]

Very interesting interview with the principal engineers at MFSL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shg0780YgAE

[Norman Tracy]

From my perspective this scandal broke on YouTube and continues to churn there. The signal to noise ratio is dropping by the hour as everyone and his uncle who want to be an audio or LP YouTuber posts on the subject. Over the weekend two of the better videos to drop IMHO are:

 What Mofi Did - How They Can Fix It... by The Vinyl Attack! https://youtu.be/5JW87LZFzqs

 Special Guest: Chad Kassem  by 45 RPM Audiophile https://youtu.be/tmW_yfEBmVM

Vinyl Attack states clearly and succinctly, the ethical issue MFSL/Music Direct has placed themselves in. In the second 45 RPM Audiophile’s interview with Chad Kassem (owner Acoustic Sounds and Analog Productions) goes into depth about how AP obtain actual analog masters for the LPs, R2R tape dubs, and SACDs reissues.

My opinion is MoFi Music Direct has placed themselves in a situation that has severely tarnished the brand. As I type this if I am shopping I can see here:
https://www.musicdirect.com/music/vinyl/paul-simon-there-goes-rhymin-simon-lmt-ed-ultradisc-one-step-45rpm-vinyl-2lp-box-set/
The claim that for $124.99 the Paul Simon - There Goes Rhymin’ Simon (Limited Edition UltraDisc One-Step 45rpm Vinyl 2LP Box Set) has this characteristic: “Mastered from the Original Master Tapes with Mobile Fidelity's One-Step Process: Paul Simon There Goes Rhymin' Simon UD1S 180g 45RPM 2LP Box Set Sounds Phenomenal.”

I have heard several of the MoFi one steps on my turntable in my system. They do sound amazing, even $125 amazing. The issue is prior to the “math problem” with the Thriller One-Step we all assumed “Mastered from the Original Master Tapes” referred to when the master is analog that actual original analog master tape would play into the cutting lathe and cut the one-step. MoFi has now admitted no the labels won’t ship master tapes so now its analog master tape to Quad DSD and the DSD is played back into the lathe. Again this process yields excellent results. If MoFi had announced a few years ago when they made the change we are doing this to obtain more and better titles for the one-steps all is well. That they did not raises questions, the top one being would the market bear $125 for a DSD sourced There Goes Rhymin’ Simon? Or once the limited edition is sold out the $2500 - $3000 each Santana Abraxas one-steps fetch on the collector’s market?

Many are commenting if the one-steps sound great what’s the issue? To me that demonstrates a naivety. In art providence is everything. If I am spending $17.98 on a HD Tracks download or $124.99 for a MoFi one-step before I decide where to spend my cash I deserve transparency and clarity from the seller.

[Norman Tracy]

Very interesting interview with the principal engineers at MFSL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shg0780YgAE

Thanks for that link Digi-G. The dismissive attitude of the MoFi team has for many of us poured gas on the fire. Compare that attitude (and bob and weave damage control) vs. Chad Kassem's stories of going the extra mile to get analog masters for his products and care to note when circumstances forced using digital masters.

Another interesting video is: Michael Fremer from Tracking Angle Focus on the MoFi Video on 45 RPM Audiophile https://youtu.be/Xl15-RC3wMU

Fremer goes into how the truth broke with the Thriller "math problem". I'm calling it that because it was the announcement that 30,000 or 40,000 Thriller one-steps were going to be sold that broke the story there is a DSD step in MoFi's master chain. They got caught because if each one-step master only produces 1,000 pressings would the Jackson estate really allow them to play the actual master tape 10s even 100s of time cutting the necessart lacquers? Math did not add up and questions were asked.

[PeteG]

Just throwing this out there, since MoFi vinyl mastering has everybody's attention. Acoustic Sounds new video https://youtu.be/Y2LdW3zUsvg.

I talked to Chad many times at RMAF, love to hear about the new albums coming out.

[Folsom]

Let me clear some things up here.

1. No one should be applauded for using the original tapes. People should be crucified for not using them. In the same way that no one should clap for you when you flush the toilet after you're done. It's part of the process done right.

2. Using the original tapes means absolutely nothing when it comes down to if there is a digital step in the process.

I know for a fact MoFi for a long time, years, has been using an ADC to DAC process for their records at a specific stage. Why? Because it's much easier to control all the problems this way. I don't know about Analog Productions but let's just say NO ONES HAS SPECIFICALLY STATED THEY DO NOT CONVERT TO DIGITAL AT ANY POINT IN THE PROCESS. Their YouTube video does not clarify anything about the process. There's a lot of machines that could be a digital step.

You have to remember a bunch of engineers and marketing guys don't see the problem with a ADC to DAC conversion process for doing work. In their minds they're adding value because they can achieve their goals for sound quality. Well for me I don't particularly care about minor surface noise so long as timbre, tone, etc, are correct - but they often think that is of the highest importance, as if quality itself is that. And when I pay a premium I expect them to take the hard route.

I told a friend recently that what MoFi does with the ADC to DAC process is like taking a vintage Rolex that needs cleaned, but instead of doing the pain staking approach to do it the right way and continue the most perfect imperfect possible time keeping... they throw in a digital Casio under the hood.

Anyone with a digital process in their chain is being extremely misleading with graphics, terminology, showing off analog equipment, etc. I doubt there are any grounds for recourse except maybe to distributors and stores selling them with marketing that is misleading, solely because the only legal action I can imagine is consumer protection stepping in and making them stop and desist misleading information.

All in all my biggest hope was just that everyone could finally admit that MoFi sound bad. Sadly lots of people think those awful things still sound good.

[Scroof Neachy]

MoFi, MoFo, what’s the diff?

[maxima95]

jsaglia - Could you explain why you find the following statement absurd:

"2. Using the original tapes means absolutely nothing when it comes down to if there is a digital step in the process."

Had you done so, instead of insulting the poster, it may have alleviated some consternation.