[Kaiju2189]

Asking a question about a Spatial Audio crossover. I am going to build an external crossover for an older pair of M3 Hologram open baffle speakers. I have tube connectors, and parts on the way, Sonic Caps and Mills resistors for the tweeter and a big Jansen for the woofer circuit.

My question is should/could I bypass both the 8.2uf and 2uf caps on the tweeter circuit with something like a .1uf Myflex. Not sure if bypassing both would cause any issues or if a .1 is to big for a bypass on either the caps.

Appreciate the feedback from the group! I know it’s not GR related but I have a ton of respect for the people in the group

Scott

[corndog71]

0.1uf is fine for bypassing any larger caps.

[mlundy57]

I likely go for overkill but I prefer to bypass all the caps in a crossover. Anytime I build a pair of speakers for myself, that's what I do. That may not necessarily be the best bang for the buck, depending on a cap's function in the circuit, but it's my preference.

[Kaiju2189]

Thank you. I’ll let my wife know that Mike and Corndog said I need to order some more caps 
I am pumped to pull the old network. I am going to keep that intact and run new wire to the external crossover. There should be quite a nice improvement. Adding tube connectors and going from Dayton Audio parts on the tweeter to Sonic caps and mills on the tweeter. The Jantzen cap on the woofer should be a huge jump from an electrolytic. I am also planning on pulling some Kimber Kable through the baffle in place of the old wire.

I’ll post a few pics when I am done and once I make sure that the speakers still make music!

[Badd99]

So not to get you to spend more money BUT

I would suggest using a 0.1 vcap ODAM instead of the myflex. It sounds so much more natural, clear, way more details. Compared to the myflex it's like a film was lifted off of the sound. If you can swing it using a 8.2 vcap odam on the tweeter would be even better, and if you went with the big guy I'd bypass with 0.01 dueland silver bypass cap. I did this combo on my nx otica and OMG THE DIFFERENCE.

I also have all my caps that are in shunt to negative bypassed by 0.1 myflex... They make a difference but not enough to spend the extra on the vcap odams. Anything in line with the driver aka on the + leg vcap odam are just mind blowing good and then with a 0.01 pure silver dueland cap it was crazy holographic. Blows you away actually.


Last note - path audio resistors will be a huge upgrade over the ones you ordered. It's NOT a small difference. I would return the ones you ordered and get some path audio resistors. You will thank me later haha

[Hobbsmeerkat]

I actually do have a bone to pick with Path Audio.
They are still good resistors and have used them in the past, but they aren't "non-magnetic" like they advertise.
There is steel used on the ends of the resistor inside of the copper casing.

All of the ones in my studios are the same way.



Going forward I'm probably going to look into the Duelund graphite resistors.

[DannyBadorine]

I actually do have a bone to pick with Path Audio.
They are still good resistors and have used them in the past, but they aren't "non-magnetic" like they advertise.
There is steel used on the ends of the resistor inside of the copper casing.

All of the ones in my studios are the same way.



Going forward I'm probably going to look into the Duelund graphite resistors.

Whoa!  Good info! I just used them in my last crossover.

[Endo2112]

I still prefer their(Path) sound, or lack there off , than the Duelands which I replaced?? Some days I miss the 90's where we judged all audio gear by how it sounded and not how it behaves or measures.

2 cents,

Don

[Hobbsmeerkat]

I still prefer their(Path) sound, or lack there off , than the Duelands which I replaced?? Some days I miss the 90's where we judged all audio gear by how it sounded and not how it behaves or measures.

2 cents,

Don

I certainly dont plan on swap them out, and I'm also not disappointed by the sound I get out of my Studios, but it just kinda bugs me knowing that they're $20-30 each, but still contain steel components.

[Kaiju2189]

I ended up finding four .1 Sonic Caps in my box of HiFi parts. I figured I would test them out. The fun thing is knowing that I can go back and redo everything again if I want to try out different parts. I removed the old caps and resistor on the tweeter circuit on one speaker and tacked in the new parts just to give it a listen. Quiet an odd experience having one old and one new tweeter crossover.

My wire and big caps for the woofer should be here tomorrow. I’ll build the board and figure out how to mount everything and get some hours burning in over the weekend.

Thanks for the help and education. A year ago I didn’t even know what a resistor or inductor was and now I am dangerous enough to tear speakers apart 😁 I’ll post a few more pics of progress and the final product.
Here’s the old tweeter circuit minus the coil vs the new. It should be a nice step up.

[DannyBadorine]

I ended up finding four .1 Sonic Caps in my box of HiFi parts. I figured I would test them out. The fun thing is knowing that I can go back and redo everything again if I want to try out different parts. I removed the old caps and resistor on the tweeter circuit on one speaker and tacked in the new parts just to give it a listen. Quiet an odd experience having one old and one new tweeter crossover.

My wire and big caps for the woofer should be here tomorrow. I’ll build the board and figure out how to mount everything and get some hours burning in over the weekend.

Thanks for the help and education. A year ago I didn’t even know what a resistor or inductor was and now I am dangerous enough to tear speakers apart 😁 I’ll post a few more pics of progress and the final product.
Here’s the old tweeter circuit minus the coil vs the new. It should be a nice step up.

You are on a dangerous path!!! But it is really fun! 

[E-Zee]

I did build some Spatial Audio M3 crossovers for one of Danny's customers. Customer provided stock crossover schematic. Danny provided the parts. I assembled and shipped 3 completed assemblies to customer in Australia.

He had 3 matching M3 as L/C/R behind a sound transparent projector screen.   The relevance is that despite the natural sceptecism he had, the customer reported back that he was very pleased with the results and claimed very noticeable and specific improvements from upgrading the components without any change to the network.. 

Best of luck in your endeavor.



Elon

Ezeescrossovers.com

[jrocks29ms@gmail.com]

 I used .1 Sonicaps on my woofer circuit in my build. They took a really long time to like settle in and let the woofer play bass well again. Seemed like way longer than 50 hours. Maybe the copper foil miflex caps I added to the tweeter was causing the shrillness I experienced either way, they took way longer to find the right sound vs the burn in of the original main caps.

My advise on crossover builds is take your time, ask questions, research and be sure of your parts. If you can, spend more on quality parts in the right areas. Wise purchases can make a big difference. You only want to tear your speaker apart once, or you can risk stripping your speakers cabinets.

My 2 cents on the miflex is they made a nice difference when used as bypass caps in the tweeters of my klipsch rp-600m which i have modified quite a lot even more than Danny’s kit.
Depending on the quality of your speakers you probably can do better. For for the money, they really helped smooth out the top end. Make it feel both holographic spacious and natural. There could be a tiny bit more detail on the very highest frequencies. It is present, but doesn’t call attention to itself

[Kaiju2189]

JRocks
I did use Mills on the upgrade. The network with sandcast resistors was the old network. Danny might kick me out if I upgraded to a nicer sandcast resistor😁

Elon

Your work is so good. I am not sure mine will be so clean. I am having an endless debate on how I am going to mount this. I am thinking either a board on the floor or using the existing cavity and mounting holes and extending a box or shelf off the back.

[jrocks29ms@gmail.com]

Just beware, you dont want those parts resting on carpet directly. Vibrations matter too so really screw them into a tight and no resonant surface.

[E-Zee]

The negative factors of external crossovers that I would always try to avoid when possible are not adding additional connectors between drivers and crossover and not having to hassle with any additional footprint or placement considerations for the external crossover.

Basically for me, if the design requires external crossover than my first choice is to incorporate or secure the crossover to the existing speaker cabinet.  For your M3's that would mean possibly securing the crossover to the rear cavity mounting holes. Even if the new board is considerable larger/wider, you could mount a rear facing board to that same location.  It could have a protective flat cover and standoffs,  or an enclosed box. 

If necessary you could possibly bridge a brace/support across the rear feet or your good idea of extending out from the internal cavity would also work great and accomplish the same benefits.  No need for additional connectors. Move it all as one unit instead of dragging the crossover behind you. No additional footprint space is occupied. No need to worry about stabilizing platform for crossover as someone else previously stated.

Show us how you decide to mount it when it's done.

Elon

[Kaiju2189]

I just ordered an LCR meter to try and find values on the coils. Any best practices or things to watch out for?

The inductor on the exiting woofer circuit is an Erse iron core. I imagine finding the inductance won’t be hard but wondering about DCR and making sure a new coil is in line with what is there already…. Just not an iron core.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

You generally need to remove one leg of the inductor from the circuit to get a proper reading.

Maintaining DCR is generally less important than matching the mH value. But if you want to maintain it, youll likely need to increase the gauge to something in the 14 gauge range. Since an air core uses a lot more wire to get the same value.

[Tyson]

Man, that sucks about the Path audio having ferrous materials.  It still sounds way better than any other resistor I've tried, maybe it's the fact that it's copper that outweighs the negatives of the ferrous metal. 

[Kaiju2189]

Let me lead with be gentle, compromises were made for space. Yes I ended up keeping the iron core inductor for now at least. And yes it’s a bit of a rats nest but it works 😁 At least the air core isn’t glued to the top of the iron core inductor anymore. In the words of Han Solo, she may not look like much but she’s got it where it counts.

I wanted to keep the crossover off the floor since I have 4 daughters that will listen with there friends. This seems much less breakable since everything is still basically contained.

Adding Sonic Caps to the tweeter sound amazing straight away. Very clean. Ditching the electrolytic cap on the woofer for a Jantzen polycap made a big difference in speed and clarity in the mid and low end. I think most of us know the bump that would come from the tube connectors. The stock binding posts were terrible. They just had tons of material to push the signal through.

It was shocking really how much the sound opened up. Listening to Bob James and I can pick out where instruments are located and the stage got a bit more depth.

All to say, it’s an excellent sound for $900 speakers, all in and upgraded. Plus the guy dropped them off from about 150 miles away!
Elekit tube preamp
Amp Camp amp monoblocks
Blue sound Node handing streaming and DAC duties.

Thanks to everyone for the help!

Scott