[warnerwh]

When that new set of speakers gets set up how long do you spend getting them adjusted?  It takes me a few days to get 90%.  Some of the first several days is filled with anxiety so my objectivity is less than optimal. Also some break in occurs for a while.  Then a couple more weeks to get to 99% of ideal.

[woodsyi]

It's been over 6 months since I received the current MLS edition of my RM40s.  I finally have them dialed in where any music I throw at them sounds right, but I had the toughest time trying to get the putty right.  I went back and forth --off with the putty, listen, more off, listen, more off, AHHHH, back on, listen, off again, listen, etc., etc., ad nauseum-- to get it right.  Then next day, find out that the woofers are boomy with a different type of music.  Back to nail scraping and listening only to repeat the next day for different  music.    Really frustrating.         Then,    I got wise and put up room treatment!  Thanks, Ethan.
Voila!     Nextday, the tuning held up.  I throw all kinds of music, from Tesla to Enya, and they hold up.  Next day  they are still good. With only a minor scraping off of putty after an amp upgrade, they are still holding up today.  With Carpenters, Dead Kennedys, Pilaf, Tosh, Tibetan chants, Gregorian chants, Mahalia, Mahler, Marsalis, Zappa, T Rex, you name it,  they all sound right.  I am, therefore,  certifying them dialed in!

Moral of the story is to get your room treated and save yourself a lot of  frustration with putty adjustment.  Putty is a PITA but you get fabulous result with right room acoustics.  I wouldn't do with out either of them.

[John Casler]

   Moral of the story is to get your room treated and save yourself a lot of frustration with putty adjustment.  Putty is a PITA but you get fabulous result with right room acoustics. I wouldn't do with out either of them...

I think it is important to understand something here about the putty adjustment, and I think Woodsyi makes a great point.

The putty does not and will not do anything for room problems or bad recordings.

It "does not" take anymore than a few minutes, to an hour, (for the most fastidiuos) to "get it right".  Any more than this and your wasting your time.

The stories about hours, weeks and months are because somehow the misconception is that "all bass" will sound great all the time.  Many also think that adjusting the putty will in some way "cure" room problems.

Both of these perceptions are false.

The putty tuning's function is "only" to tune the system before and after it has broken in.

There are two primary reasons for this tuning:

1) Adjust the bass systems response "before" and "after" break in

2) Adjust the bass systems response to the damping abilities of a different amplifier

If you move your sub or speaker, there is no reason to make any further adjustment.  Any change in bass response from moving your speaker is "entirely" due to the woofers interaction with specific room dimensions/modes/nodes.

When these types of threads are posted, some get the idea that VMPS speakers won't "sound right" if you don't spend weeks and months "tuning them".

This is not true.  The initial tuning process of fine tuning the putty and then fine tuning the L-pads is a one time deal, and only needs to be addressed again for the following reasons:

Putty:

1) If you change your amp to one with a significantly different damping ability (example tubes to SS, or biamping)
2) If you enjoy "tweaking" to see what differences you can hear and how close you can get it.

L-Pads

1) If you change a "major" component that changes the clarity, detail, resolution or any of the qualities you know your speaker capable of, that might have been amplified, or attenuated, by the change

2) Again, if you enjoy tweaking and fine tuning to the "nth" degree.

The statments of "unbeleivable differences" from a "sesame seed" sized putty adjustment are likely not of the magnitude expressed.  There of course is "joy" in finding just how accuratley your speakers "can" sound when tuned, but this is experienced in degrees of perception.

Dialing your systems in with all the various components and adjustments is a "never ending process" for many of us.  Until we get the "exact reality" of a live event, we will forever "tweak and search" for adjustments and components that "make a difference".

While some might "not like" the idea of having these adjustments, you will find they simply exchange these for "cable swaps", DSP systems, tube rollings, room treatments, or any of many other things we use to enjoy our systems.

Those who make mention that the process is "difficult", or "tedious", or "frustrating", likely are expecting a result that is not available. again based on unrealistic expectation.

The simple variance of sonic structure from recording to recording is "NOT" reason to "adjust and re-adjust" your speakers, any more than it is a reason to change your cables or amp.

To make this even clearer, you have to understand that the "more" you have your system "dialed in, or tuned" the more you will be able to hear, the "variances and sometimes short comings" to a wide range of recordings.

Forgiving systems, mask shortcomings.  Resolving systems give you what is on the CD/Vinyl.  High dispersion drivers and untreated rooms, can "smooth" bad or less perfect recordings into sounding smoother, with greater "sameness".

If it is engineered for the car radio, I have to say it isn't going to please you as much.  Your system does not need adjustment, for every CD.

I have 4 (1-2-3-4) LARGER subs so I have been through the "tuning" process.  Let me assure you, after the inital tuning, I have not done anything more than a small fingernail's worth (just cause I'm a tweaker) here and there.

I find there is far more difference, made in moving them around, orienting them, and adjusting my listening position.  Beleive it or not, I even get interesting changes, from opening all the doors and windows during nice weather.  This reduces bass echo/reverb/ringing, just like adding bass traps. (but that is another topic)

I only write this because sometimes comments get made that give the wrong impression.

The adjustability of the VMPS speakers is a remarkable thing to have at your fingertips.  It gives you the ability to "custom tune" your speakers in a way that other speakers don't have.

Don't get the idea that "non-adjustable" speakers have some "edge" that they will sound "perfect" and don't need adjustment.  The fact is, they are fixed and the options have been limited to positioning, orientation and associated components.

If you remove the simple "pea" and set each L-Pad to 12:30 then (after breakin") the speakers will sound fine.  This is the condition of any "unadjustable" speaker on the market.

If you wish to "Dial" them in to more closely to match your room, components, and preferences, then have at it.  But don't make it an "ordeal" or "quest with no end".

It is Audio, Plain and Simple.  It is fun!

[Tyson]

I'd say that if you know what you are doing (ie, you've already done it a few times), then tuning only takes a couple of hours.  If you've not done it before, there's a longer time involved because you have to play around with the settings a bit more in order to see how each change affects the sound.  Once you have a good idea of that, then tuning only takes a few hours.

Two things I would recommend:

1. tune the bass first
2. Use at least 2 different CD's that have bass going up and down the scale.  Something with a good standup acoustic bass works well.  That way you can hear clearly bass transitioning from low bass to high bass, which helps a lot with overall tuning.

[Carlman]

To add to Tyson's point, it also depends on how familiar you are with the room you're in...  It took me a year to learn my room and be able to say, "That's where my speakers go, no doubt about it."

Everytime I make changes to my system that change how it sounds, I end up having to toe the speakers in or out a little more... we're talking less than an inch of change but it's still a change in speaker position.  Getting the speakers to within 1/16" of each other to the listener makes a big difference to me.  The soundstage just isn't perfect otherwise.

New speakers take much less time now than they have in the past now that I know where and how they'll be positioned.  I don't spend much time 'dialing' them in when they're new because they change so much in the first few days.  I generally wait a week before I pull out the measuring devices.

-C

[warnerwh]

You can dial in speakers in an hour but it's only 90% imo. You need to listen to a wide variety of music at various room positions. To me a half inch is significant and until I've used up all the possibilities of room position I'm not satisfied I've done the best I can.  It wouldn't matter to me what brand of speaker it is I'd still take the time to move them a little here and there all the while having a wide variety of music listened to.  The fact that some people have problems I feel is for two reasons: One is bad acoustics and two is they get in a hurry.  My latest set of VMPS speakers are RM 40's with maybe 200 hours on them. I don't know if they will break in any more or not but the sound is so real that it actually startles me.

[woodsyi]

Many good points.  Learning curve is definitely there for putty and L-pad adjustment.  I did not help myself by actively triamping with a Larger Sub.  Changing x-over frequency for neos and woofers also requires putty change! I think I've learned enough to be able to tune the new midwoofer in a day or so whenever they get here!  I am going to test out Brian's passive highpass on the neos with 4th order active lowpass on the woofers to see if they work.

[John Casler]

You can dial in speakers in an hour but it's only 90% imo. You need to listen to a wide variety of music at various room positions. To me a half inch is significant and until I've used up all the possibilities of room position I'm not satisfied I've done the best I can.  It wouldn't matter to me what brand of speaker it is I'd still take the time to move them a little here and there all the while having a wide variety of music listened to.  The fact that some people have problems I feel is for two reasons:  ...

Good points.

In the scheme of things, the "positioning" you mention is better the "first step" to "getting things right.

By that, I mean, before "fine tuning".

The two things to establish initally are:

1) speaker position and convergence
2) listening position

These two criteria will determine an incredible amount of things.

The only adjustments that should take place before these are:

1) removing the inital putty pea
2) presetting the pots

While "fine tuning" can take place anytime, it will not be as effective until the full break in, has been completed

Your message about "impatience" is also important.

There are those who will "fine tune, and tune, and re-tune" from "day one".  

That is OK, but do remember, that "contiuous" fine tuning, especially on "unknown" source material during the tranistion of breaking in a set of speaker drivers, can be difficult.

Most of you now have CD burners, and I would suggest ripping and burning a select group of "reference cuts" that you use.  If you find an additional cut that allows you to "further dial" the system in, add it to those cuts.

For putty pinching, or simple bass evaluation, I use the following:

STIMELA (coal train) - Live recording Hugh Masekela
Flight of the Cosmic Hippo - Studio recording Bela Fleck
Duende -  Studio Recording BlackLight Syndrome
Tin Pan Alley - Studio Recording Stevie Ray Vaughn
Fever - 1959 Live Recording - Peggy Lee
Revenge of the Pink Panther - Live Recording - Henri Mancini
Keep The Bugs Off Your Glass And The Bears Off Your Ass - Studio recording Bad Plus
Creator's Prayer - Studio recording Tribal Winds
All or Nothing at All - Studio recording Diana Krall
Private Investigations - Studio recording DIRE STRAITS

Each of these cuts has certain "bass qualities" that will become evident as you "dial in" the putty.

But I repeat, they will not totally reveal themselves if the speakers are not placed and positioned well in relation to the best spot in the room, and in relation to your listening position, or if you have a room interaction that interfers with the sonic property being sought.

Once dialed in. these cuts will reveal bass traits like:

Detail/Resolution
Low Frequency Extension
Richness
Interacting Harmonics
Attack/Edge
Impact
3-D depth
Envelopment
Realistic Tonality
Blending/Integration with the Mids/Highs

Not all cuts have "all" the traits.

For example the Masekela cut, doesn't have extremely prominent bass like Fleck's Hippo, it just has subtle bass in some areas with beautiful subtle detail and overtones, that should be present, as well as a detailed placement and images on the soundstage.

Private Investigations too has this same quality. In this cut, there is some rather quiet, yet detailed bass, that is placed in 3-D space in a way that "when you have it right" you know it.

Bass is not all BOOM.  It is many times as detailed, and will imaged as well, as the mids and highs.

If anyone ends up using any of these cuts and wants to know what to look (listen) for don't hesitate to post questions.

[meilankev]

Warner,

The first time I attempted this (with the help of two other RM40 purchasers), it too a couple of hours.  However, it turns out I had a defective preamp at that time - so we were never able to get it to where we thought it should be.

When I got the replacement preamp, tuning went very smoothly (this time by myself) - probably because I had been through it before.  I would estimate about 75 minutes.

Once the speakers broke in, it was obvious their sonics had changed.  So, a third crack at tuning was neccesary, and this time it took only 45 minutes (after re-applying some of the putty to each speaker.

I have not touched them since - over 2.5 years ago.  My system hasn't changed (and hopefully won't for another decade or so).  Oh, when folks let me try out gear, I'll modify the potentiometers to allow fine-tuning.  But, I put them back where they started when my gear is back in the loop.

I'm a firm believer in taking the time to do it right the first time.  But once they are where I like them, I just want to sit back and enjoy the music.  In my listening room, my ears are the only ones that matter.

Kevin

[John Casler]

 Once the speakers broke in, it was obvious their sonics had changed. So, a third crack at tuning was neccesary, and this time it took only 45 minutes (after re-applying some of the putty to each speaker.

I have not touched them since - over 2.5 years ago. My system hasn't changed (and hopefully won't for another decade or so). Oh, when folks let me try out gear, I'll modify the potentiometers to allow fine-tuning. But, I put them back where they started when my gear is back in the loop.

I'm a firm believer in taking the time to do it right the first time. But once they are where I like them, I just want to sit back and enjoy the music. In my listening room, my ears are the only ones that matter.

 ...

Right you are Kev, and I just wanted to make sure that those who read this thread, and are considering VMPS, don't get the wrong idea about the tuning process and think you spend 10% of your time on your backside listening and 90% on your knees pinching putty and turning L-pads.

Or worse yet, that you can "never" get them tuned right.  

As with all audio we can always make it better, but the improvements get "finer, and finer, and finer".

It is a "getter done" and enjoy type thing, as you point out and further "tweaking" is either because you made a major change, or you love fine tuning and tweaking.

[JoshK]

To me dialing in your VMPSs is a right of passage, can't do it=don't cut it!  

How good are your ears?  J/K cause that argument doesn't work.  Many of us know when a guitar isn't in tune but few of us can tune it by ear.  Same principle applies really.  

The difference is, if you are an audiophile you most likely have a learned sense of knowing how things should sound.  This allows one to tune via the same iterative process as tuning a guitar (although more tedious due to small non-continuous steps) till one gets the sound one expects.  It is somewhat obvious when you get the right results but not a trivially obvious.  Such is why some complain about the process.  

It would be ideal if one knew how to measure and also knew how to tune but this is asking much of the consumer.  Such is life, less than ideal.  

It took me a long while to feel comfortable tuning, but like a guitar, it comes with time, patience and practice.  Wish I could offer more but Cheney's directions spell it out fairly concisely.

[ekovalsky]

I spent a year playing around with the RM/X.  Only when I got a real measurement tool (TacT) was I able to  achieve proper level settings and room placement.  The putty is still somewhat of a mystery, it makes no difference on measurements when a little (or a lot) is added or removed.  Adding large amounts of mass to a passive radiator system will affect its resonance but micrograms don't seem to matter much at least to me.  I have the generic small marble size chunk removed from each vitiried passive radiator.

Having seen how 1/2" - 1" movement of a speaker (or listening position) can significantly affect in-room response, the chance of getting things right without an objective measuring device is analogous to a double amputee winning an ass kicking contest.  Even with measurements, the process took many, many hours.

[warnerwh]

The key to getting the right sound is in your ear/brain tool.  Like Josh said that you need to know real sound sounds.  Of course with DSP this would make life easier I would think. Part of me wonders why the Tact and Deqx aren't selling like hotcakes.  I have a good idea how much good room acoustics help and suspect dsp would be the ticket to near perfection.  I also wonder how well it can work due to the fact you can have dips 10+db in the bass region and to flatten that out the processor would obviously need to boost it.  Seems like that could cause problems with the speaker being able to handle this power boost and also the power amplifier.

[JoshK]

I think part of the key is you don't boost dips, only flatten peaks.  Yeah that kills a bit of sensitivity but with active setup that shouldn't be a problem.  You still need to deal with nulls in a normal fashion.

[warnerwh]

I think part of the key is you don't boost dips, only flatten peaks.  Yeah that kills a bit of sensitivity but with active setup that shouldn't be a problem.  You still need to deal with nulls in a normal fashion.

In that case it seems that you can do quite well with just a well treated room. You may not have the flexibility but frequency response accuracy in room will be very similar as far as the + and - deviation from flat.  My treated room was worst case plus/minus 7db with my old speakers and it was plus/minus 2 db from 80 to 400.  This measured with a RS meter on a tripod and Rives cd.  Move that meter a few inches and you'll have a different set of measurements. After doing all the measuring I came to the conclusion that the only way to set up speakers is with my ears.  The knowledge of room response is interesting to learn though.