[simoon]

Hopefully this is the correct place for this post.

On another forum, there is a thread on soundstage, where a couple of people are claiming that since there is no vertical information encoded into stereo, that height in soundstage is purely our minds filling in information that we know should be there.

But I have recordings of the same classical pieces, for example, where the height of a soloist differs on each of them. I have some jazz recordings, where, when a big band member is taking their solo, you can hear the height of there instrument get higher, because they are standing up.

On the album, "Islands", by King Crimson, on the title track there is a cornet that plays a solo at about 2:30 in, where it is obvious to me (and others music enthusiast friends), that the instrument is coming from above the rest of the musicians, at seemingly the correct height of horn player standing up.

So, are these people correct, or is there height soundstage information on stereo recordings?

Please be as technical as needed to explain your position, either way.

[NoahH]

I suspect the effect being heard is "relative position in the recording room and mic". The reason I am phrasing it that way is that the likely effect you can get is:

• sound happens at source
• it directly travels to the microphones
• sound from source also hits a ceiling first reflection and bounces down to the mics with a delay.

When you hear playback with the little recorded delay, your mind attributes it to height as it never wants to think it is closer to the floor, and as the left /right info is coming from the stereo effect.

That is all a lay-guess

[simoon]

I suspect the effect being heard is "relative position in the recording room and mic". The reason I am phrasing it that way is that the likely effect you can get is:

• sound happens at source
• it directly travels to the microphones
• sound from source also hits a ceiling first reflection and bounces down to the mics with a delay.

When you hear playback with the little recorded delay, your mind attributes it to height as it never wants to think it is closer to the floor, and as the left /right info is coming from the stereo effect.

That is all a lay-guess

That could be true. And I believe that is probably what is being argued by those on the other site.

But how would that explain realistic heights of musicians, seemingly coming from the 'correct height' above the other musicians, at say, a classical performance with ceilings 50 feet (Disney Hall) above the stage, but also realistic musician heights of performances at jazz clubs with much lower ceilings?

[Tyson]

The original mic didn't just capture soundstage information in 2 dimensions, it captured it in 3.  So when playing back through the speakers, the soundstage is left/right as well as top/bottom.  Although, IME the top/bottom information is a bit weaker than the left/right information. 

[FullRangeMan]

With speakers that emit sound only to front soundstage reproduction becomes severely limited (2D soundstage) for bests results try planars or OBs.

[toocool4]

Soundstage height, does exist and you can get most of it with good setup. You can also get it by angling the front of the speakers up by a few degrees.

[consttraveler]

Yes, it is called definition.  Open Baffle design (I'm partial to my Spatial X-5's), has it in bunches.  The soundstage is both tall, and wide, and you can point to the Oboe Player who just passed gas.  Third row, four seats in from the center, he or she is the center-edge of the woodwinds.

 

[VinceT]

Interesting question

It does exist, and there are many variables that can contribute to it.

1. Recording techniques - mic placement in the studio, utilizing room and over head mics versus directly micing the instrument or amp/cab, or instruments going direct to the recorder or board. I would even add tape versus digital. Also the acoustics of the recording studio.
2. Mixing - how did the engineer mix the tracks and blend the different recorded inputs with the final product
3. Playback - our associated gear and our room acoustics when we play the tracks back and the multitude of factors that play into that process

But if it isn't there in the recording, it will be harder to get during the playback no matter what gear you use. A live jazz small ensemble gig recorded from stage mics will not have the same spatial cues as an early pre stereo recording that is hard panned left and right in the mix.

[simoon]

The original mic didn't just capture soundstage information in 2 dimensions, it captured it in 3.  So when playing back through the speakers, the soundstage is left/right as well as top/bottom.  Although, IME the top/bottom information is a bit weaker than the left/right information.

As it was once explained to me, a lot of the soundstage and image is created by the interferences patterns captured by the original mics, and as long as the speakers are capable of reprocessing that interference pattern, image and soundstage will be recreated. Those interference patterns are created in all dimensions, including the vertical.

It is not that much different than the interference patterns we detect in nature to locate sounds in space, whether they are to our left, right, in front of us, or behind up, Or, above us.

[simoon]

With speakers that emit sound only to front soundstage reproduction becomes severely limited (2D soundstage) for bests results try planars or OBs.

This is not my experience.

I have owned both planars, and OB's, and loved them. I currently own a standard 3 way system; Jeff Bagby's "Auricle" monitors, sitting on a pair of his 10" woofer modules(these are not subwoofers), and my soundstage is huge. in all directions. These have RAAL riobbon tweeters, and SB Acoustics "Sartori" mids and woofers.

Percussionists in orchestras sound as if they are coming from behind the rest of the musicians, and 25' back in the soundstage. Many instruments come from well beyond the outer edge of my speakers.

My soundstage is very close to being as large as the planars and OBs I've had in the past.

[FullRangeMan]

This is not my experience.

I have owned both planars, and OB's, and loved them. I currently own a standard 3 way system; Jeff Bagby's "Auricle" monitors, sitting on a pair of his 10" woofer modules(these are not subwoofers), and my soundstage is huge. in all directions. These have RAAL riobbon tweeters, and SB Acoustics "Sartori" mids and woofers.

Percussionists in orchestras sound as if they are coming from behind the rest of the musicians, and 25' back in the soundstage. Many instruments come from well beyond the outer edge of my speakers.

My soundstage is very close to being as large as the planars and OBs I've had in the past.

A miracle, you was blessed by a miracle, it even dont have drivers firing backwards and have deep soundstage, however sound stage wide depend on the room width and speakers distance each other.

[Mag]

   My impression having gone to a few live concerts and sitting in an upper balcony is the higher frequencies travel upward whereas bass doesn't. This is also true in the forest canopy where certain species communicate at high frequencies above the tree canopy, low frequencies work closer to the ground.
   In the shorter distances of an audio room perhaps this isn't noticed or it could as the poster is alluding to give an illusion of height. But it's really not an illusion because the higher frequencies IMO are travelling upwards.

[timind]

A miracle, you was blessed by a miracle, it even dont have drivers firing backwards and have deep soundstage, however sound stage wide depend on the room width and speakers distance each other.

Speaker placement is critical to getting 3d soundstage/image. And pulling the speakers 4 feet or more away from the wall behind them is where the magic begins. Also, smaller monitors will do it better than large floorstanders, IME.

[Early B.]

OP -- as usual, there's no simple answer in audio. Too many variables and opinions. The most we can say is that soundstage height exists, but only in your mind on some recordings with good speaker placement using high-end gear in a large, acoustic-friendly room. Reviewers love to speak poetically about soundstage height, but it's mostly meaningless.

[Tyson]

Getting good soundstage height is also one reason I like tall speakers.

[AllanS]

I’m still in the middle of setting up so stage width and imaging have a long way to go.  But I listened to a new, well recorded disk today full of music I’ve never heard and was presented with properly positioned percussion elements above and behind the speakers.  I don’t know how or why it works.  It’s psychoacoustics but not my brain filling in missing information.

[Mitsuman]

Getting good soundstage height is also one reason I like tall speakers.

Was the sarcasm button depressed? Not sure.   

[Early B.]

Was the sarcasm button depressed? Not sure.   

Nope. He's right. Think about soundstage height from 72" line array speakers vs. 36" box speakers.

[Speedskater]

I sort of recall an AES or Bell Labs test track, that simulated height.  This was long before CD's so it's hard to remember, but I think that they did something to the treble.

[DannyBadorine]

There is no up/down button on a mixing console.  There is only left/right (with a couple of different ways to make that happen).  5.1 surround is different but there is still no way of dedicating information to up or down.  Any vertical soundstage is an illusion created by different mic'ing techniques in the studio.  It's more about depth and placement in the mix creating an illusion of height.  This also has a lot to do with the studio equipment that it is recorded and mixed on.  Higher quality digital clocking will give you a better perception of this.  Additionally, more transparent speakers with flatter phase and frequency response will recreate this better.  Otherwise, it's all just an illusion.