[RipVanW]

Hi there.  New member.  First post.  Starting a networked digital music library and playback chain from scratch.
See the 'back-story' below for a personal intro.

I think the question I have is fairly straightforward, but there's a lot of backstory to it, and that might change the answer.  I'll start with what I think is the core question so that readers won't immediately click 'Next', and then follow up with the background further down.

What I believe I'm looking for are recommendations on media server software which is:

• (ideally, but I might break down and pay) open-source, capable of running on Debian Linux (since I prefer Linux and I'm most familiar with Debian),
• capable of either being co-located on a Linux NAS server or connecting to one through a LAN,
• works well for locally-stored audio in .wav or .flac format (video isn't that important to me, I don't plan on doing much streaming, and I don't permit lossy compression in my music library),
• and (most importantly and why I'm writing this), is capable of gapless playback through a generic media server-capable player (foobar, VLC, etc).

Kodi, Emby, and Plex come up a lot in general searches, but when I dig into them, the gapless playback seems to be a big problem.  I don't have a lot of classical or live albums, but I do have some of each, and know that playback gaps will be a major annoyance, so I want to nip that problem in the bud before I get started.

Here's the back-story:
I have a long history with audio and, while I've never been a high-end audiophile, I've always wanted my equipment and my music to be the best I could afford and justify.  I had a pair of Altec Lansing Model 14's, and over 400 CDs and various vinyl.  Then I moved.  I couldn't take the Altecs with me, and while I still have them in storage, the foam surrounds have since disintegrated.  Later I married a child of the 90s who thinks iTunes and earbuds are all anyone needs, can't stand to have music played at what I consider to be an appropriate level through speakers, and doesn't like my chosen musical genres to begin with.  Unwilling to listen through a boombox, a crappy TV sound bar or through headphones connected to an equally-crappy laptop DAC, I just stopped listening entirely, and my music has stayed on the shelf, literally collecting dust.

Recently, some fifteen-odd years later, I've been working on a project that required listening to a bunch of music, and the urge has returned to start listening to my own music again.  Playing through a formal CD player and (decent) speakers is still problematic due to the home life, but I've discovered media servers and 'budget audiophile' USB DACs, headphone amps, and headphones, which didn't used to exist.  My anticipated playback chain would be:  NAS -> Media Server -> Laptop -> USB DAC -> Headphone Amp -> Headphones, with everything remaining 16/44.1 (or higher if/when I acquire any high-res material) throughout, without any compression or modification before reaching the DAC. 

I've settled (I think) on components for the audio hardware side.  Since I don't have enough HDD space to rip all of my music to on my laptop (and because I want to set up something for general file backup as well as audio), I'll need to set up a NAS. I'm used to working in Linux so that part should be fairly easy.  The next part/paragraph is where I'm getting out of my comfort zone and could use some help.

I'm most familiar with foobar2000, VLC, MPC, etc as playback apps.  Maybe there are other/better out there, I'm not sure.  While I know I could just point them directly to files and folders on the NAS, from what I've read, the best thing to do is to use some form of media server software as an intermediary.  It would database the audio files (typically using metadata tags, based on what I've read), and the laptop's playback software would connect to it, be able to search, and pull data from there.  That got me looking at media server software, which is where I saw the 'gapless' discussions, which made sense since I recognize the technical challenges in making that work.  I just wasn't aware it could be fixed.  Now that I see it can be fixed, I want to make sure that whatever media server software/player combo I settle on doesn't have that limitation.  I know that I'm going to have a lot of learning and experimenting to do with whatever software I settle on (or maybe even multiple server softwares which play to different strengths), but it looks like this criteria might be the hardest to solve, so I'm going to start with it first.

So...  ideas?  comments?  lessons learned?

Thanks,
Rip

[newzooreview]

A Raspberry Pi music server running Volumio or Moode Audio sounds like it would meet your needs.

You can get the hardware configured with USB or S/PIDF out to a DAC or with a DAC built in:

https://www.allo.com/index.html

The good thing about Volumio or Moode is that they are Linux with everything stripped out that would interfere with audio.

Alternatively, you can build a Roon ROCK server, also Linux based, using an Intel NUC. I started with Raspberry Pi and moved to the Roon ROCK server to get Roon's excellent indexing and display of my music stored on a NAS (Synology). https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/rock-install-guide

I would get a dedicated box vs. installing software on the NAS. An OS pared down and dedicated to music playback is the best route  in my experience. A general-purpose OS with music streaming added on is just introducing too much noise to be optimal. It works, but never sounds as good as the fully purpose-built OS.

[newzooreview]

Roon, Volumio, and Moode will provide gapless playback. I suppose there are still some options nowadays that do not provide gapless playback, but it is getting to be rare.

[RipVanW]

Thanks for the pointers.  You've given me some reading to do!

I've already own half a dozen Pi's of various models that I fool around with so I'm well familiar with them.  I've even designed my own boards for them, though never anything audio-related.  I was tasked to set up some NUCs at work a few years ago, so am at least aware of what those are as well, though I don't own any. 

I'm trying to stay as high end as I can without going overboard, so am inclined to stay with my first thought of a Schiit Modius/Magnius stack that's fed by the laptop from a remote server, but the Allo hardware certainly looks interesting, and I might play with that as well.

As far as the remote server goes, I'll look at the options.  Your comments on indexing and display are making me think that I might also end up with the Roon, but I'm saying that before even going to their webpage, so we'll see...

Thank you very much for your comments, and I look forward to any additional ones you or others may have.

Rip

[newzooreview]

fed by the laptop

General-purpose computers should not be in the playback chain. It's fine to have a smart phone, tablet, general-purpose computer running a GUI to send "play this, then that" instructions to the streaming device, but the streaming device should be running a pared-down, audio-only OS.

If you are going to use a Schiit Mobius and Magnius then one of the Allo streaming boxes will be a good match.

I connect my Roon ROCK NUC directly to my Holo May KTE DAC via USB. That is about 10x more costly than the Schiit system. I used to have a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and I still have an older Bifrost and Valhalla--excellent and reliable for the price.

[WGH]

I connect my Roon ROCK NUC directly to my Holo May KTE DAC via USB.

This is all new to me, your setup looks clean and simple. I went in another direction. Built a i7 music server, Windows 11 with JRiver app, old Dell monitor for display plus the free Gizmo remote app on a rooted Nook Color for remote access.

What is your Roon UI?
Does Roon run headless and you use a tablet to make music selections?
Are you paying $120/year

[newzooreview]

This is all new to me, your setup looks clean and simple. I went in another direction. Built a i7 music server, Windows 11 with JRiver app, old Dell monitor for display plus the free Gizmo remote app on a rooted Nook Color for remote access.

What is your Roon UI?
Does Roon run headless and you use a tablet to make music selections?
Are you paying $120/year

I paid the lifetime license for Roon early on, so no annual/monthly fee.

My "Roon UI" is my laptop or phone. It just sends instructions to the Roon ROCK server to play/queue songs/albums. The device running the Roon app is not in the playback chain.

Yes, the Roon ROCK server is headless. It is connected via ethernet to my network switch. I can open the web page for the Roon server via any browser on the network (for checking status and rebooting), but the Roon client software handles server updates, so accessing the Roon server via its web page is not necessary.

Music is on a Synology NAS, the Roon ROCK server indexed and found art for all of the music (it has internet access via ethernet), and from any device on the network (computer, phone, tablet) I can run the Roon client software and play music.

With the USB out directly to the DAC I get everything up to DSD 512 playing natively.

Part of the trick to the setup is the unique, in-house USB receiver on the Holo May DAC. It does not seem to be bothered by the potential noisiness of a direct USB out from a computer (although the Roon ROCK server is fully dedicated to Roon's canonical linux-based OS). I've tried USB out from general-purpose computers to other DACs with relatively poor results (e.g., adequate until I heard this current setup).

[RipVanW]

General-purpose computers should not be in the playback chain.

Hmmmm...  I understand where you're coming from re: CPU multitasking/latency sorta thing.  I haven't seen a media server UI in action yet, and my starting assumption was that people typically use traditional media players as the UI, and just type in the IP address or FQDN of a media server somewhere in the config to link the two.  What I'm hearing you say is that the primary UI is generated by the media server itself via web interface, custom app, etc.  It's doable. I have space for a Pi or NUC next to the Schiit boxes.  I just have to reset my expectations of the flow and the UI.

I connect my Roon ROCK NUC directly to my Holo May KTE DAC via USB. That is about 10x more costly than the Schiit system. I used to have a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and I still have an older Bifrost and Valhalla--excellent and reliable for the price.

Yeah, I totally understand that I'm coming in on the low end of audiophile hardware.  I figure I can spend the $600 for a starting set without getting too many evil looks, and then upgrade a piece every now and then as time goes on.  I read a lot of reviews, and the recurring theme was than the two Shiit boxes I'm looking at, and the HIFIMAN HE400se headphones were all among the best you could get for the money (though definitely not the best you can get).  I'm ok with that for the time being.

Rip

[WGH]

Can you network the music storage to a media server?

My digital music lives in my main office tower computer, it has the newest quiet fans, not loud at all but not silent either. I like being able to rip, edit, sort music files on a big monitor sitting in a comfy chair.
My music server is in the living room and is a totally silent, fanless Intel i7-9700 that is networked (ethernet cable) to the office computer.

Since you are on a budget and a Linux guy the Rasberry Pi would appear ideal to what you want to accomplish.

Noise is the enemy of high end sound and switching power supplies (wall warts) are one of the worst. As you research build options the linear regulated power supplies are always the expensive add-on that reviewer's say you must have. I would use an Acopian linear regulated power supply instead of a wall wart, I use three in my music server setup. eBay is my go-to place for Acopian power supplies, the ps are built like tanks, designed to run 24/7 and have extremely low ripple. The Acopian B5G400 5 volt, 4 amp power supply specs are: Load 0.3 %, Line 0.1%, Ripple 1.5 mV RMS and are $75 - $100 (list $260).

How to build a Raspberry Pi Roon Endpoint Music Streamer
"The whole build costs around $150, which is pretty good going for such a sleek-looking Roon-ready end product."
https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/how-to-build-a-raspberry-pi-roon-endpoint-music-streamer/

[RipVanW]

Networking isn't a problem for me.  I have wired Ethernet to all of the rooms that need it, and multiple Gig-level switches.  I have a Ubiquiti WiFi AP that runs the laptops, cell phones, and a few of the RPIs, but most everything else is wired.  I've always kept Microsoft Networking turned off on my systems to reduce malware problems, but realize that in order to make this project work, I'll probably have to break down and turn it on.

As long as the Pi will handle the load, it's definitely familiar and low-cost.  I can probably just re-purpose one I already have.  My biggest concern was just that even though it is a very capable little system, it's not a powerhouse, and I was worried about things like throughput, latency, etc.  Maybe those fears are unfounded.  I saw where newzooreview had moved from a Pi to a NUC when he moved to Roon, however you're saying that you're running Roon on your Pi.  I did some checking last night on Roon's website and see that they have a pre-packaged image Roon ROCK that's optimized for the NUC (I assume that's what newzooreview was referring to).  I'll have to dig further and see what's available outside of the ROCK package.

I do understand about switching PS's and noise.  My E.E. background gives me a bit of an edge there.   Ground loops, ground hum and power rail noise/riipple are real things and annoying as all get out to reduce.  That said, my background also tells me that if you have a sequence of bytes that needs to get transferred from device A to device B, and that if they get there in time, or close enough in time that the jitter buffer can package them in the right sequence before they get to the DAC, that all the noise in the world (as long as it isn't sufficient to change the digital on/off threshold levels) won't change what bytes are fed into the DAC.  However, if the DAC's power rail is sufficiently noisy that it causes errors in the analog output voltage, or if the analog circuitry of the DAC uses a shared ground, and even worse, a shared power rail with the digital side, then all heck can break loose with the analog signal once it exits the DAC.  In those cases I'll agree that a quiet power supply is ultra-important.  But I hear ya - I've listened to the same YouTube videos, and if enough people are hearing differences that there's a market for the low-noise power supplies, there must be something to it, whatever the root cause is.

Along those lines, I noticed when I read about the Allo S/PIDF board newzooreview pointed to that it had optical isolation in the S/PIDF output chain, and they touted that as being instrumental in minimizing noise and grounding issues.  However on the other hand, he said that he moved from that to the NUC for, I assume, equal or better performance, and I'm sure that the USB output on the NUC isn't optically isolated...  I'm not quite sure I follow how it's an improvement over the S/PIDF board, other than maybe a beefier computer specs for the Roon software... Any comments to help me understand that?

I looked at the Pi link you provided.  Interesting.  If I follow that, I might try to hybridize it and replace the DAC2 HAT with the Allo S/PIDF hat and feed it into the Schiit Modius.  It seems like that might be the best of both worlds (though I'm still wondering what pushed newzooreview to migrate to the NUC at that point...  I'm still wondering if that isn't the best way to go, even if it is more expensive...  hmmmm).

[WGH]

As long as the Pi will handle the load... My biggest concern was just that even though it is a very capable little system, it's not a powerhouse, and I was worried about things like throughput, latency, etc.

It will take a bit of trial and error to find out if the Pi will work for you. I moved on from low powered music servers.

I built my first music server in 2011 based on the original 2011 Computer Audiophile C.A.P.S. v2.0. The build used an Intel Pine Trail Mini-ITX with integrated Intel Atom D525 (1.8 GHz) and 4 GB ram.
The Intel Atom worked just fine, it ran Windows 10 and JRiver which surprised me, once it finished booting. Yes, it was slow to start. My DAC only plays 24 bit/96kHz files. I have a few DSD recordings and JRiver can downsample the files so they would play but you could see the Atom D525 grinding away, there was quite a lag from clicking Play to when the music started.

Hollis Audio Labs sells a cute little music server that uses a Intel Atom quad core processor. Tyson likes it and I trust his ears. The latest Atom processors will run Windows 11 too.
HAL circle on AC: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=71

The Intel Atom processors can be faster (up to 2.4 GHz) than what is available in the Raspberry Pi



I like to play and keep my options open which is why I went with the Intel i7, overkill for sure but the price difference between the i7 and i5 wasn't that big. If I want to play with state-of-the-art upsampling using HQ Player my music server has the horsepower.

[newzooreview]

It seems like that might be the best of both worlds (though I'm still wondering what pushed newzooreview to migrate to the NUC at that point...  I'm still wondering if that isn't the best way to go, even if it is more expensive...  hmmmm).

The only reason I migrated to the NUC is that I use Roon, and the NUC is the canonical Roon server configuration. Roon develops their server software for a sparse version of Linux running on Intel in a NUC. They sell this directly (as the Roon Nucleus) and support people making their Roon ROCK servers as well. Versions of Roon that are not running on a NUC setup with their Roon ROCK software are ported from this canonical Linux version. I was running the Roon server on an M1 Mac connected via ethernet, and I was getting dropouts on hi-res songs. I moved the Roon server to the NUC and this problem went away.

If you are not running Roon, then experimenting with a Raspberry Pi connected by ethernet to the same network hosting the NAS should work well.

I've heard good things about the Lumin streamers but have not tried them. I had an Auralic Aries G2 and returned it. The proprietary Aries software was unreliable and poorly designed. I also tried the Aries as a Roon endpoint and the sound was veiled.

[RipVanW]

It will take a bit of trial and error to find out if the Pi will work for you. I moved on from low powered music servers.

I would say that you did!  I looked at your post on the fanless server you recently built.  It's a beast! (in a nice way)

The only reason I migrated to the NUC is that I use Roon, and the NUC is the canonical Roon server configuration.
..
If you are not running Roon, then experimenting with a Raspberry Pi connected by ethernet to the same network hosting the NAS should work well.

Makes sense on the Roon/NUC thing.  That's their intended server hardware, so why not use it and get all the optimization benefits.  It's more expensive than a Pi, but much less expensive than most audiophile gear, so not a big cost increase overall.

I'm going to have to mull it over, maybe try a few different software flavors.  I may start on the low end just to get something going, then work my way up as I purchase more gear.  Hopefully in a period of months, not years though.  I'm kinda thinking the NUC/Roon might be what turns out to be the 'stable' platform that I stick with for a while, but I say that before I've even seen what Roon looks like or heard what it sounds like, so it's a little premature. 

I'll get there.  And I'll report back once in a while to let you know where I'm at.  In the meantime, first things first, and I've got a lot of CDs to rip.  I welcome any further comments while I start dealing with that.

[Tyson]

I went down this same path. For a commercial product, the HAL MS6 was the best I ran across.  I liked that unit a lot because it sounded great, the technical support from HAL (a local vendor here on AC) was outstanding, and the streamer was versatile as hell.  Because it ran a stripped back version of Windows (optimized by Rich at HAL), I could run any player I wanted - Roon or Foobar or JRiver or Spotify.  Because any program that can run on a Windows platform can run on the MS6. 

The other reason it sounds so good is the power supply.  The new GaN based power supplies are a very significant step up in performance over a traditional switching power supply. 

If you do go the HAL MS6 route, I have a couple of them for sale in the FS section here on AC, I'm letting them go for a really good price. 

[Yog Sothoth]

I'm going to have to mull it over, maybe try a few different software flavors.  I may start on the low end just to get something going, then work my way up as I purchase more gear.  Hopefully in a period of months, not years though.  I'm kinda thinking the NUC/Roon might be what turns out to be the 'stable' platform that I stick with for a while, but I say that before I've even seen what Roon looks like or heard what it sounds like, so it's a little premature. 

I'll get there.  And I'll report back once in a while to let you know where I'm at.  In the meantime, first things first, and I've got a lot of CDs to rip.  I welcome any further comments while I start dealing with that.

I'm using a NUC, but with Volumio and am very happy with it.  I highly recommend the NUC as a hardware platform; it comes in many incarnations, is very versatile, and solid. 

I also have used a Lenovo tiny Thinkcentre which I was very happy with, although I prefer the form factor of the NUC.

I bought all of them used on Ebay at a very good price without disks or OS, and then populated them myself with a large SSD and Linux.

[mcgsxr]

Have not been unhappy with Pi3+Allo HAT (have run Allo Boss DAC, Allo Digione spdif, and Hifiberry Digi+) over a number of years.  Used PiCore and Volumio for s/w.

Currently enjoying a Pi4 with iFi power supply via usb out (Volumio again) to my Wadia DAC/Pre.

I get that there are higher end toys in this space, but have personally not been motivated to part with the $ for any.

[RipVanW]

I went down this same path. For a commercial product, the HAL MS6 was the best I ran across.
...
The other reason it sounds so good is the power supply.  The new GaN based power supplies are a very significant step up in performance over a traditional switching power supply. 

Thanks for the pointer.  I'll take a look.

I'm using a NUC, but with Volumio and am very happy with it.  I highly recommend the NUC as a hardware platform; it comes in many incarnations, is very versatile, and solid. 
...
I bought all of them used on Ebay at a very good price without disks or OS, and then populated them myself with a large SSD and Linux.

I've already been looking down the Ebay route myself to see what I can find.  As you said, there are many incarnations of it.  As a reference point, I saw where Roon supports NUC5+, and Intel is up to NUC10.  Newer is always better, but older is always cheaper.  The question I suppose is, from an audiophile perspective, are there any improvements in the later versions which matter?  Outside of having a unit which is likely to have fewer operating hours on it, and which will be that much farther away from being unsupported by Roon (if I go that route), are there any reasons to gravitate towards the higher end of the version list?

Also, since power supplies have been brought up on so many occasions, is this a perceived issue with the NUCs, and what have people been doing in that regard?

Have not been unhappy with Pi3+Allo HAT (have run Allo Boss DAC, Allo Digione spdif, and Hifiberry Digi+) over a number of years.  Used PiCore and Volumio for s/w.

Currently enjoying a Pi4 usb out (Volumio again) to my Wadia DAC/Pre.

I get that there are higher end toys in this space, but have personally not been motivated to part with the $ for any.

I hear ya.  I may well start out with a Pi just because it would be quick and easy, and I already have the base hardware (although only with the standard power supplies).  That said, I'm tempted to try out the NUC too...