AKSA 55 with electrostat?

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ultrachrome

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AKSA 55 with electrostat?
« on: 25 Mar 2003, 09:47 pm »
I'm considering building a hybrid electrostat inspired by Sheldon Stokes' designs http://www.quadesl.com.

How might the AKSA 55 cope with an electrostat load?

Phat Phreddy

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AKSA 55 with electrostat?
« Reply #1 on: 28 Mar 2003, 09:30 am »
I cant give you any clues on the AKSA info (though I seem to remember Hugh posting that Electro stats were not preffered).. However I would really like it if you could keep me informed about the DIY ESL project...

A while back I was speaker hunting for my brothers birthday with very little time and hit apon a local (in Holland) company called final.. I picked up thier final 0.3 hybrid model at about 40% of list... A couple of months later they won best of CES and they now appear to have a much bigger range...

I have to say that for certain types of music I have never heard anything like them... They are not the most authoratative speaker in the world.. They wont crank out huge decibel 'slam' and I think possibly correct sub integration would help also (I think this is required with non hybrid ESL's personally) but they just have so much precision... So crisp...

I would love to have a set of ESL's to tinker with...

Phat Phreddy

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AKSA 55 with electrostat?
« Reply #2 on: 29 Mar 2003, 02:23 pm »
Now you have gone and messed with my mind...

I started reading up on DIY electro stats as I like the idea of a pair... Wadeing through articles and getting my head around the concept (with dreams of huge 7ft monsters to invade my room) but there sure seems to be a fair bit of work in the panel creation...

So secretly wishing I could get some pre made panels and what do I find... That a company in Holland has some kind of deal with Final and produces a kit version of the 0.3 for 740 USD !! If you do a review they knock another 50 off !!!  

http://www.audiocircuit.com/9041-esl-circuit/Diy/Diypackages/NewtonSoundSystems-NSS/9041DDNSS.htm

I have to say the Final 0.3's are a treasure... The chance to make a set at +- 750 is something that if I needed speakers I would have 0 hesitation about... Even not needing speakers I am trying to work out where I could work them into my life...

ultrachrome

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AKSA 55 with electrostat?
« Reply #3 on: 31 Mar 2003, 08:38 am »
After reading your first post I was going to point you toward Audio Circuit but it looks like you found it.  I was considering the Final kit.

Additonally, there are kits available from http://eraudio.com.au a company that comes highly recommended by Stokes.  They offer a 76"x12" full-range panel for about the same price.  They also offer supplies like mylar and coatings.

However, If I can get ahold of some good perferated stators then I will use Stokes assembly technique.  Otherwise, I may chose the Final or ER Audio kits.

JohnR

AKSA 55 with electrostat?
« Reply #4 on: 4 Apr 2003, 04:19 am »
I'm about to go rescue my Quad 57's from my folks' place... however I think they will be waiting for me to build a small EL84 amp for them...  :o

AKSA

AKSA 55 with electrostat?
« Reply #5 on: 5 Apr 2003, 03:39 am »
This question is perennial.  I guess I should explain.

The electrostatic loudspeaker was artfully designed specifically to destroy push pull Class AB solid state amplifiers.  There is no other way to put it.

The argument goes this way.

The PP SS amplifier, both Class AB and Class A, has one mortal enemy.  Amp kryptonite is called cross conduction (CC).  CC puts one rail in direct communication with the other - we can forget about the speaker here - via the output transistors.  A horrific current flows, aided and abetted by the largish capacitance at the rails, and the output devices lay down their lives in the electronic equivalent of a massive auto burnout.

So, what causes CC?

Oscillation;  uncontrolled switching of the output devices precipitated by phase shifts across the global feedback network.  Negative feedback must remain NFB, and when it strays into the PFB region, the amp oscillates in short order.

And what causes PFB?

Capacitance in the output stage, amongst other causes, typically around 2uF.  Capacitors change the relationship between current and voltage;  phase shift is the result.

The phase shift induced by high capacitance at the load transmutes negative to positive feedback - voila, oscillation, CC, and solid state death!

An ES speaker has planar electrodes stretched quite close together.  Of itself, this is perhaps not too much of a problem since the resulting capacitance is only of the order of picofarads.  However there is a problem;  ESs must be driven with very large AC voltages and for this we need a transformer with a high step up ratio.

Typical transformers used in the Quad have a step up ratio of 100 times.  This means (by simple transformer physics) that impedance, and specifically capacitance, is magnified by 100 times squared, viz 10,000.  This is the problem........

If we take the 200pF interelectrode capacitance of a Quad (these are guestimates;  don't have the spec sheets in front of me) and multiply this by the requisite 10,000 to get the 'reflected' capacitance at the low impedance primary, we finish up with the 2uF specified earlier.

Now, the AKSA will cope with 2uF at amplitudes where the inevitable ringing does not precipitate oscillation.  It will handle both the ESL57 and the ESL63 AT LOW VOLUME.  However, BE WARNED:   Turn up the wick, and destroy the amplifier!!!

OK, why the hell can't the AKSA handle full power in an ES?  Good question.

The reasons have to do with careful dimensioning of the feedback system which promote sonics, but take the amp just inside the Bode-Nyquist feedback criteria.  The AKSA is much more stable than most SS PP amplifiers, but even it has limitations, so be warned:  the ESL is the proverbial wooden stake/silver bullet for the AKSA, just as it is for other SS PP amps.

If you want to drive ESLs there are only a couple of choices.  One is tube amps, which, with low feedback circuits, are assuredly good with these loads.  The second is zero feedback mosfet SE designs, a la Nelson Pass, which drive them beautifully.  Some years ago I designed a 28W single ended tube/mosfet hybrid called the Glass Harmony which is eminently suited to driving ESLs, and in fact four years ago I installed two pairs of these monoblocks with ESL63s and a Scandinavian active subwoofer system.  They have never given a moment's trouble, and the owner is as captivated with the sound now as he was when he first heard them.  They go remarkably loud, too.

As far as PP SS technology is concerned, the only SS PP amp which can drive an ESL with complete safety must necessarily be agricultural in design, with enormous lengths taken to prevent oscillation.  The 200W Levinson is such an animal, and not a bad amplifier.  But these measures ALWAYS compromise the sonics, and in truth the best amps for ES speakers are zero global negative feedback amplifiers - a VERY tall order for the designer, I can tell you......

Moral - wait until I have a SE tube/mosfet hybrid in the commercial market.  It won't be cheap, but expensive, exotic speakers demand unusual amplifiers.

I hope this explains the issues.  It's complicated stuff.

Cheers,

Hugh

Raj

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AKSA 55 with electrostat?
« Reply #6 on: 7 Apr 2003, 07:01 pm »
Moral - wait until I have a SE tube/mosfet hybrid in the commercial market.  I

Cheers,

Hugh[/quote]


 :D  :D  :D

Now I'm waiting for the Aksa dac and the Hybrid amp.

Thanks
Raj