[NoahH]

Hi all!

I just got my new AVA amps and suddenly the NX-tremes are sounding great!

The interesting thing is that they seem best weirdly near-field right now. Roughly 10 feet between speakers, but then I am only about 6 or 7 feet from each one.

Can anyone share what they are using for rough triangle side lengths for their seats relative to speakers? Trying to understand if this is common. Any notes on toe-in would be much appreciated too.

Thanks all!

[subsonic1050]

That is almost exactly what I have going on with mine. I also found near field listening to be the best - at least in my room which is 14x19. The 2nd pair I built is in a much larger room and we still preferred near field listening.

The outside edges of mine are about 2 feet from the sidewalls - so nearly 10 feet apart, and I'm actually sitting even closer to them than they are to each other as well - probably 6 to 7 feet from each speaker and maybe 5 feet from the imaginary line connecting the two if that makes sense.

I messed with positioning a lot and that included toe-in as well. Mine are toed in quite a bit - probably 25 degrees or so which seemed to be the sweet spot for imaging and soundstage in my room.

Have you noticed a tendency for the sound to seem very high or like it is going over your head?

[NoahH]

The sound is definitely high. It feels off from listening to other systems, but natural when one considers that singers usually stand and don't sing 3.5 feet off the ground. But it definitely feels odd initially.

[corndog71]

https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0

This worked way better than all of the other methods I’ve tried over the last 20+ years.

[rich121]

Noah and Subsonic,

What are your room dimensions including ceiling height?

[NoahH]

https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0

This worked way better than all of the other methods I’ve tried over the last 20+ years.

Yeah - LOTS is good. I did a quick version yesterday and had the weird results, thus why I started the thread. I was trying to figure out if others had good results in near-field configuration. Audiophile Junkie on YouTube ended up near-field too, but he is in a small room.

[NoahH]

Noah and Subsonic,

What are your room dimensions including ceiling height?

My room is very weird and very big. Basically it is part of an open plan house, and the space the speakers are in is the narrow part that then widens like a v. Where they are it is roughly 15' wide. The wide part of the V (wall opposite speakers) is roughly 30'. Room is about 35'-40' deep. Ceiling is 10'.

Measuring that more also shows me that the severity of near-field is higher than I thought. Close to 12' tweeter to tweeter and then 7' tweeter to ear.

[NoahH]

I should also.say - the speakers sound amazing for tone and detail. It is imaging that is poor right now without having this dialed in.

This experience has quadrupled my already-existing belief in synergy. My McIntosh MC275 sounds gorgeous with many speakers, but was terrible with these. The AVA amps paired in sound amazing.

[corndog71]

That doesn’t sound like a near-field set up to me.  That sounds like a normal setup.  I always thought of near-field as like speakers on your desk.  Your room shape is unusual for sure and may be why imaging is weird.  It might help to treat the 1st reflection points with either absorption or diffusion. 

I’m also surprised the McIntosh amp didnt sound good.  Did you try the 4 ohm taps?  While I don’t have experience with the NX-tremes, all of Danny’s designs that I’ve tried are tube-friendly. What preamp are you using?

[NoahH]

I had always heard near-field as being when you were closer to the speakers than they were to each other. That is most common in desktop, but not exclusive. Optimal is usually posited to be equilateral distances. Fairfield is beyond that. But that's just my rough understanding.

On the McIntosh side, I did try all the taps. I think the issue is that the impedence curve on the NX-tremes is pretty rough, and too much for the McIntosh. It is also possible that the autoformer stuff plays worse with it than normal transformers and such in other tube amps.

I also, honestly, have trouble believing these are ever great with tubes. The sensitivity is there, but that impedence curve kinda screams "manhandle me". I say that with humility as I have not tested a lot.

All that said, I think it would like biamp or triamp really well with tubes. If you could expose each to a smaller chunk of the curve, it would be ideal.

Pre-amp - tried direct from a Chord Qutest with Roon doing fine via DSP, a miniDSP SHD doing its own volume control and an Adcom GFP-750 - none were great.

A Classe CA-201 (super old model) did better than the Mac with these two. It is demonstrably a worse amp in every way except power and damping. Thus why I strongly suspect that 'manhandle the speakers' is part of the recipe. These AVAs can do 450w into 4 ohms, so they have enough. Honestly, something high higher damping might still do even better.

[Rock Ball]

Here's how I have mine.

Between speakers:  6 ft.
Front of speaker to ears:  7 ft.
Front of speaker to front wall (behind speakers):  7 ft.
Side wall to speaker:  7 ft.
Back wall to ears:  3.5 ft.
Ceiling height at center of room:  10 ft.
Speakers point directly at ears.

[NoahH]

Here's how I have mine.

Between speakers:  6 ft.
Front of speaker to ears:  7 ft.
Front of speaker to front wall (behind speakers):  7 ft.
Side wall to speaker:  7 ft.
Back wall to ears:  3.5 ft.
Ceiling height at center of room:  10 ft.
Speakers point directly at ears.

Thanks - how do you feel the imaging is with your setup? Very specifically - how well can you place the speaker locations with your eyes closed?

[Rock Ball]

Thanks - how do you feel the imaging is with your setup? Very specifically - how well can you place the speaker locations with your eyes closed?

Imaging is very precise which is what I prefer.

When I towed the speakers out, the imaging was less precise.

I have a center channel about two feet back and guests think that is playing.  I too have to check sometimes to make sure I have 2 channel on instead of my AVR with 5.1.  I can physically switch between the two.

[mlundy57]

Danny once told me OB speakers should be a little closer together then the distance to the LP. This is how I set mine up and I like the result. The speakers disappear, the sound stage is wide, relatively deep (the farther from the front wall, the deeper the soundstage), and image placement is accurate. The latter is especially noticeable when watching and listening to something on the TV. If the person speaking is in the center of the TV, the sound comes from the center. If they are off center, the sound is offset to the side they are on. The result is the sound always seems to come from the speaker's mouths.

A refinement to how far to spread the speakers apart uses upper bass / lower midrange presentation. If the upper bass/lower midrange is thin, move the speakers a little closer together so there is more coupling in this region. If the upper bass/lower midrange is fat/bloomy, move the speakers a little farther apart. I don't remember if this step is part of LOTS or not, but it works.

Another method that works well is detailed in "The Audiophile's Guide and it's companion reference music CD  https://www.psaudio.com/products/the-audiophiles-guide/

While there is a lot of similarity in different set-up methods, the only place I've run across the recommendation for OB speakers to be closer together than they are from the LP has come from Danny. If you haven't tried that placement, it's worth experimenting with.

[subsonic1050]

As previously stated, my room is 14x19 - ceiling height varies as it is in a theater room, 8 foot ceilings in the back, 9 at the front.

Noah - I spent 3 solid days moving my speakers around. That was one thing that surprised me. I kept hearing how forgiving they were regarding placement. That was not what I experienced. They were actually the least forgiving speaker I've ever had when it comes to placement. That could be due to the fact that they are a pretty large speaker in a relatively small room? I didn't spend the time setting up the 2nd pair I built that I did with my own, but they sounded very good within half an hour of moving them around in a much larger room.

I can tell you that after I took the time - my imaging is unreal. Easily the best I've ever heard. Ghost-like center imaging with easily distinguished separation. On a well recorded track the speakers disappear.

[rich121]

Danny once told me OB speakers should be a little closer together then the distance to the LP. This is how I set mine up and I like the result. The speakers disappear, the sound stage is wide, relatively deep (the farther from the front wall, the deeper the soundstage), and image placement is accurate. The latter is especially noticeable when watching and listening to something on the TV. If the person speaking is in the center of the TV, the sound comes from the center. If they are off center, the sound is offset to the side they are on. The result is the sound always seems to come from the speaker's mouths.

A refinement to how far to spread the speakers apart uses upper bass / lower midrange presentation. If the upper bass/lower midrange is thin, move the speakers a little closer together so there is more coupling in this region. If the upper bass/lower midrange is fat/bloomy, move the speakers a little farther apart. I don't remember if this step is part of LOTS or not, but it works.

Another method that works well is detailed in "The Audiophile's Guide and it's companion reference music CD  https://www.psaudio.com/products/the-audiophiles-guide/

While there is a lot of similarity in different set-up methods, the only place I've run across the recommendation for OB speakers to be closer together than they are from the LP has come from Danny. If you haven't tried that placement, it's worth experimenting with.

"then the distance to the LP"
Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "LP", is that 'Listener Position'?

[mlundy57]

"then the distance to the LP"
Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "LP", is that 'Listener Position'?

Yes, LP is listening position.