Down A Rabbit Hole?

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catluck

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Down A Rabbit Hole?
« on: 2 Mar 2022, 02:25 pm »
Perhaps you've seen this "NON-Review" of the Sapphire M3's.  Interesting inasmuch as the author, while taking refuge in a "Not A Review" title criticizes the Sapphires albeit with disclaimer upon disclaimer.  The essence of the non-review seems to be that, perhaps those of us who enjoy the Sapphire series either lack listening capability or don't really "know" how to listen.  The non-review can be read at "https://www.thebrokenrecord.net/spatial-audio-lab-m3-sapphires-not-a-review/" The author asks whether the M3's "sound good."  His findings: NO. In part, he states, "...The sound of the Spatial Audio Sapphires never came close to that experience for me. Every time I heard them, and I would include Ron’s video in this, they sounded thin and oddly flat to me."
Ultimately, the author asks whether we audiophile types are, "...so far down their own little rabbit holes that they can’t hear what their system sounds like anymore?"  And, perhaps not surprisingly, the author states, "...This is one guy’s opinion who just happens to know good sound."  Perhaps. Many of us have more than a single system. For instance I listen to the Big Merlins upstairs.  I've been to at least 20 CES's.  Listened to many friends' "high-end" systems.  I suspect many of you are similarly situated. And, of course, there are comments of the many folks who have listened to the Spatials.  I remain impressed with the M3's after nearly a year of ownership. In the end, I suppose it doean't really matter: If I'm down a rabbit hole with these M3's, well, it's a hell of a musical rabbit hole.  Thoughts?

Mr. Big

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #1 on: 2 Mar 2022, 02:42 pm »
Perhaps you've seen this "NON-Review" of the Sapphire M3's.  Interesting inasmuch as the author, while taking refuge in a "Not A Review" title criticizes the Sapphires albeit with disclaimer upon disclaimer.  The essence of the non-review seems to be that, perhaps those of us who enjoy the Sapphire series either lack listening capability or don't really "know" how to listen.  The non-review can be read at "https://www.thebrokenrecord.net/spatial-audio-lab-m3-sapphires-not-a-review/" The author asks whether the M3's "sound good."  His findings: NO. In part, he states, "...The sound of the Spatial Audio Sapphires never came close to that experience for me. Every time I heard them, and I would include Ron’s video in this, they sounded thin and oddly flat to me."
Ultimately, the author asks whether we audiophile types are, "...so far down their own little rabbit holes that they can’t hear what their system sounds like anymore?"  And, perhaps not surprisingly, the author states, "...This is one guy’s opinion who just happens to know good sound."  Perhaps. Many of us have more than a single system. For instance I listen to the Big Merlins upstairs.  I've been to at least 20 CES's.  Listened to many friends' "high-end" systems.  I suspect many of you are similarly situated. And, of course, there are comments of the many folks who have listened to the Spatials.  I remain impressed with the M3's after nearly a year of ownership. In the end, I suppose it doean't really matter: If I'm down a rabbit hole with these M3's, well, it's a hell of a musical rabbit hole.  Thoughts?

The bane of internet sites, anyone can state their opinion, make a video, yet unlike yourself and many of us have no real experience in the audio long term, setup, gear selection and so forth. I read that a while back and just shook my head on this writer's take of a fabulous speaker, and I have owned many over 40 years. either his gear was really bad or he had no idea how to set them up right or his room sucked. What he said about the speaker was no one who had tried or owned them as experienced. Take it as a grain of salt in a salt shaker.

Tyson

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #2 on: 2 Mar 2022, 03:01 pm »
Open baffle speakers do not sound like box speakers.  Many people prefer the sound of a box speaker.  It sounds like the non-reviewer is one of those people.  Therefore, it's not just the Sapphire or even Spatial that he won't like - it'll be all OB speakers regardless of who makes them. 

For me it's the opposite, after I discovered OB speakers I vastly prefer how they sound vs a box.  It really just comes down to personal taste and expectations.

ric

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #3 on: 2 Mar 2022, 03:03 pm »
I don't know, it seems like a B.S. premise--to review a speaker you have not had in your home, based on anecdotal listening. In his article he says:
       "Alas, and as I stated in the title, this is not a review of the M3 Sapphires. I don’t feel I ever REALLY got to hear what these speakers can and cannot do"
End of story. A non-review disclaimer is B.S., regardless of the product!

Tangram

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #4 on: 2 Mar 2022, 04:18 pm »
Every now and then I check to see if someone has written a new M3 Sapphire review. I also ran across this non-review, last week, and it left me scratching my head. So I decided to dig a bit in an effort to see what the author's "deal" is. Turns out, he seems to have a reasonably close association with Tom Port, who owns Better Records. For those of you who are not familiar with Tom and Better Records, he "invented" the concept of the "Hot Stamper". He compares multiple pressings of the same record, in an effort to find one that sounds especially good. He then sells those records for prices in the $150 and up range. Mostly classic rock. Coveted pressings, like a White Hot Stamper of a Led Zeppelin album can run you $500.

Anyway, Mr. Broken Record has bought into the Tom Port worldview which says that it doesn't matter how good your system is, if the record is crap (i.e. not one of my hot stampers) you are wasting your time. He's also taken on a bit of Tom's attitude, which is to disparage pretty much anything that doesn't align with his worldview. In fact, pissing people off is a badge of honour for him. Apparently it must be good for business.

Why even bother writing a "non-review" based on listening to speakers in situations where you were immediately put off by the setting? It was such an odd "non-review" that it reminds me of YouTubers who have run out of things to say but know they need to feed their channel and subscribers regular content.

Honestly, I wouldn't give Mr. Broken Record a second thought. While it was great that Steve Guttenberg reviewed the M4s recently, Clayton really deserves a spot in one of the mainstream audio magazines given how great his speakers sound.

RonN5

Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #5 on: 2 Mar 2022, 06:52 pm »

As for the reviewers not knowing what good sound is....hmmm, I'm more interested in knowing what they heard as best they can describe it and not so much their opinion as to whether what they heard was good.

As we all know, when it comes to color, sound and taste, we have preferences....and those preferences can change with time, with repeated exposure, and with changes in circumstances.

Any speaker, like the M3 Sapphire, that has had a lot of positive press sets up an expectation for a new, first time listener.  For me, that means that I need to hear something multiple times so that I can set the frame of reference vs what I'm used to listening to.  And as Tyson said, if his frame of reference was a box speaker, that could be a problem.

I'd say that the M3 has a similar sound to some panel speakers, but with far more dynamics.  It sounds a lot like both the Volti Razz and Rival horn speakers...very lifelike.  But, the M3 doesn't sound as much like the Salk Veracity STs I previously owned...also a great speaker but more of a hifi sound if that makes any sense.

Now, as for his doesn't sound like live music comment....having just come from the Florida Audio Expo with multiple $500k systems that sounded fantastic...meaning really emotionally and physically engaging....but not really like "live musc"....so my reaction to his comment is "so what".


Mr. Big

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #6 on: 3 Mar 2022, 02:23 pm »
My beef with his feedback, not a review..? but read like a review, is what he says he is hearing is nothing like any of us hear, and we are all different, perhaps as Frank Zappa said once "They would not know good music if it bit then on there ass"  :lol:

RonN5

Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #7 on: 3 Mar 2022, 04:19 pm »
You make a good point...."not a review" is a catch for "you gotta read this review".  And then when you read it, it more or less of a back handed complement...as in....I know these are supposed to sound good, but they didn't really sound all that good....so maybe its me or maybe its the record or maybe all the reviewers and listeners are just confused.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure this non review isn't worth any more ink??



sebrof

Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #8 on: 3 Mar 2022, 07:47 pm »
I don't own and have never heard Spatial speakers, so perhaps I might be a bit more objective about the article.

If I had read the article independent of this thread, I would not have thought it was about Spatial speakers. I would have thought it was a guy asking a "bigger" question about audiophiles in general. It just happened that what he heard while listening to Spatials was so different than what he expected that the experience made him think of something he hadn't thought before.

Towards the end he makes it clear that you should not rely on his opinion of the speakers and he mentions Ron of New Record Day:
"He also likes the speakers. In fact, he seems to love them. So if you’re looking for a REAL review of these the Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires, check out Ron’s review at New Record Day."

jnschneyer

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #9 on: 3 Mar 2022, 08:40 pm »
Respectfully, I disagree that there is anything innocent or honest about this supposed non-review.  What does that even mean?  Simply as writing, completely apart from its subject, it is objectionable in nearly every aspect of good and reliable prose.  I recently discovered Spatial Audio speakers and am in the throes of deciding whether to go X4 or X5.  In researching the speakers, I came across this same piece.  From the title of the piece on, there is a level of quasi-cleverness, disingenuousness, and self-congratulation that was off-putting to the point of rendering the piece completely dismissable.  When, as a writer, you open an article claiming it isn't a review and then begin to pass judgement, however contritely or however qualified, you have essentially reviewed the product, regardless of your protestations to the contrary.  Perhaps you've not judged thoroughly or well, but a judgement has been made, and that judgement has gone out to the readers, whether favorable or, in this case, particularly where speakers are concerned, damning.  This writer then goes on to question the listening capabilities of two people, while congratulating himself on own sensitivity and sensibility.  It is always obnoxious when one claims enlightenment for oneself and benightedness for others, even when, no, particularly when, it is couched in the false modesty of having once been among the legions of the benighted.  I was blind but now I see, too bad you're still blind.  There isn't one area of life in which that attitude isn't arrogant and offensive.  He then goes on to list several rhetorical questions which are not questions at all but secret (though not very) declarative pronouncements on, as he perceives them, the Sapphires' shortcomings.  That would be fine, or at least honest, if he'd been frank about, again, protestations aside, the fact that he was, as does any reviewer, passing judgement on the speakers.  I don't care what his opinion of the speakers is - every reviewer will make his or her own assessment.  What I object to is the attitude and quality of the prose.  The contrived cleverness, the sham modesty, and the absurd premise (non-review - please - if you didn't want to write a review but wanted to deal with the supposed "bigger" subject, then write about the bigger subject and leave the speakers out of it - dress it up as you like, but one is irrelevant to the other), make for a species of dishonesty all too common in critical prose, so common that the writers who employ it are completely convinced they're being funny and fair and would be aghast that anyone could so construe their motives and abilities.  And I haven't even touched on style.  Pardon my French?  Are you kidding me?  And, please, if you're holding yourself up as a professional writer, it's center on, revolve around.  I apologize if this is too unfriendly for the forum.  I considered just leaving it alone, but reading the piece again got me incensed.  Not on the speakers' behalf, about which I haven't enough experience to judge, but on behalf of honest prose and critics and criticism everywhere.       

rich121

Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #10 on: 3 Mar 2022, 09:45 pm »
Respectfully, I disagree that there is anything innocent or honest about this supposed non-review.  What does that even mean?  Simply as writing, completely apart from its subject, it is objectionable in nearly every aspect of good and reliable prose.  I recently discovered Spatial Audio speakers and am in the throes of deciding whether to go X4 or X5.  In researching the speakers, I came across this same piece.  From the title of the piece on, there is a level of quasi-cleverness, disingenuousness, and self-congratulation that was off-putting to the point of rendering the piece completely dismissable.  When, as a writer, you open an article claiming it isn't a review and then begin to pass judgement, however contritely or however qualified, you have essentially reviewed the product, regardless of your protestations to the contrary.  Perhaps you've not judged thoroughly or well, but a judgement has been made, and that judgement has gone out to the readers, whether favorable or, in this case, particularly where speakers are concerned, damning.  This writer then goes on to question the listening capabilities of two people, while congratulating himself on own sensitivity and sensibility.  It is always obnoxious when one claims enlightenment for oneself and benightedness for others, even when, no, particularly when, it is couched in the false modesty of having once been among the legions of the benighted.  I was blind but now I see, too bad you're still blind.  There isn't one area of life in which that attitude isn't arrogant and offensive.  He then goes on to list several rhetorical questions which are not questions at all but secret (though not very) declarative pronouncements on, as he perceives them, the Sapphires' shortcomings.  That would be fine, or at least honest, if he'd been frank about, again, protestations aside, the fact that he was, as does any reviewer, passing judgement on the speakers.  I don't care what his opinion of the speakers is - every reviewer will make his or her own assessment.  What I object to is the attitude and quality of the prose.  The contrived cleverness, the sham modesty, and the absurd premise (non-review - please - if you didn't want to write a review but wanted to deal with the supposed "bigger" subject, then write about the bigger subject and leave the speakers out of it - dress it up as you like, but one is irrelevant to the other), make for a species of dishonesty all too common in critical prose, so common that the writers who employ it are completely convinced they're being funny and fair and would be aghast that anyone could so construe their motives and abilities.  And I haven't even touched on style.  Pardon my French?  Are you kidding me?  And, please, if you're holding yourself up as a professional writer, it's center on, revolve around.  I apologize if this is too unfriendly for the forum.  I considered just leaving it alone, but reading the piece again got me incensed.  Not on the speakers' behalf, about which I haven't enough experience to judge, but on behalf of honest prose and critics and criticism everywhere.     

Agree totally... if you go on to read in the comments section, you can find this guy is a self promoting, ignorant nut job.

A quote from one of his articles and exactly the same statement he made in a reply to 'Dave', in one of the comments about the Spatial article.
"Anything recorded, produced, mastered and pressed much after 2000 will not be a reliable record for doing demos"

Most of his articles promote Tom Port (Better Records)... which sums it all up for me, I believe this guy just repeats what he is told and has no real experience/knowledge himself.

Rick

RDavidson

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #11 on: 3 Mar 2022, 09:55 pm »
Welcome to the internet.

It's a buffet of information. If something looks/smells rotten, just stay away from it or prepare to get sick. With stuff like this, I'll assess my personal tolerance before giving it a taste test. Even though I'm a curious person, like most of us I don't need more garbage in my life. I'm 100% certain the writer, knowing we audio enthusiasts can be a sensitive bunch, is getting the reaction he was hoping to drum up. It's just a different form of trolling. Based on the comments, I know to stay away. :thumb:

Mr. Big

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #12 on: 4 Mar 2022, 01:05 am »
Respectfully, I disagree that there is anything innocent or honest about this supposed non-review.  What does that even mean?  Simply as writing, completely apart from its subject, it is objectionable in nearly every aspect of good and reliable prose.  I recently discovered Spatial Audio speakers and am in the throes of deciding whether to go X4 or X5.  In researching the speakers, I came across this same piece.  From the title of the piece on, there is a level of quasi-cleverness, disingenuousness, and self-congratulation that was off-putting to the point of rendering the piece completely dismissable.  When, as a writer, you open an article claiming it isn't a review and then begin to pass judgement, however contritely or however qualified, you have essentially reviewed the product, regardless of your protestations to the contrary.  Perhaps you've not judged thoroughly or well, but a judgement has been made, and that judgement has gone out to the readers, whether favorable or, in this case, particularly where speakers are concerned, damning.  This writer then goes on to question the listening capabilities of two people, while congratulating himself on own sensitivity and sensibility.  It is always obnoxious when one claims enlightenment for oneself and benightedness for others, even when, no, particularly when, it is couched in the false modesty of having once been among the legions of the benighted.  I was blind but now I see, too bad you're still blind.  There isn't one area of life in which that attitude isn't arrogant and offensive.  He then goes on to list several rhetorical questions which are not questions at all but secret (though not very) declarative pronouncements on, as he perceives them, the Sapphires' shortcomings.  That would be fine, or at least honest, if he'd been frank about, again, protestations aside, the fact that he was, as does any reviewer, passing judgement on the speakers.  I don't care what his opinion of the speakers is - every reviewer will make his or her own assessment.  What I object to is the attitude and quality of the prose.  The contrived cleverness, the sham modesty, and the absurd premise (non-review - please - if you didn't want to write a review but wanted to deal with the supposed "bigger" subject, then write about the bigger subject and leave the speakers out of it - dress it up as you like, but one is irrelevant to the other), make for a species of dishonesty all too common in critical prose, so common that the writers who employ it are completely convinced they're being funny and fair and would be aghast that anyone could so construe their motives and abilities.  And I haven't even touched on style.  Pardon my French?  Are you kidding me?  And, please, if you're holding yourself up as a professional writer, it's centered on, revolve around.  I apologize if this is too unfriendly for the forum.  I considered just leaving it alone, but reading the piece again got me incensed.  Not on the speakers' behalf, about which I haven't enough experience to judge, but on behalf of honest prose and critics and criticism everywhere.     

Well said. I came out as feeling he just wanted to tear the speakers down due to all the high praise of them, basically saying they sounded like crap and he's heard these recordings on other speakers and they sounded much better. I stated that to him, and he said I am glad you liked them, so he said to his ear they were not that good and if I liked them fine, and I am OK with that, but he wrote a review and bashed them. 1st negative review ever on them so take it for what it is.

catluck

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #13 on: 4 Mar 2022, 02:21 pm »
Jnschneyer - on point. Simply. ON POINT.  I find it difficult to locate the sense in Sebrof's comment that he wouldn't know the "Non-Review" was about SA speaks if he hadn't read this "thread." They're the only speaks mentioned in the article and they're mentioned in derogatory detail.  Perhaps if the Non-Review detailed the speaks Sebrof owned he might feel differently.   Scratching my head on that one... In any event, I'm in my rabbit hole happily nibbling on Bill Evans "Time Out." But, of course, I don't know good sound.

sebrof

Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #14 on: 4 Mar 2022, 05:45 pm »
Perhaps if the Non-Review detailed the speaks Sebrof owned he might feel differently.   
Personally I wouldn't care...but you nailed it.

rooze

Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #15 on: 4 Mar 2022, 07:13 pm »
There’s nothing wrong with this not-a-review. It’s one guy’s opinion posted on his own website. The only thing I might take exception with is his lack of experience with the particular rooms and supporting equipment. But since he clearly steps away from focusing on the speakers, and makes it a more general critique of certain people’s mindsets, I’d tend towards cutting him some slack. Not that it matters but I had the X3s and couldn’t get them to sound good either.

Tyson

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #16 on: 4 Mar 2022, 07:31 pm »
I finally broke down and actually read the "not a review" and I cannot say I am surprised.  People look at those giant woofers on the speakers and they expect even more bass and way more slam than they are getting from their box speakers with smaller drivers.  But here's the thing, with a good OB speaker you end up with 'less' bass, not. more bass.  And if someone is really used to the way box speakers interact with a room, their first OB experience can be..... underwhelming. 

Also, his review isn't so much a slam against the Spatials as it is an assertion that other people (audiofools) just don't have the EAR for music that he does.  So ergo they buy bad speakers because they suck at listening.  His suggestion that people should listen to more live music is also a huge assumption and rather condescending.  As a rebuttal, I'll say for myself that I hit around 24 live unamplified concerts/performances every year and to me the Spatials get me closer to that live sound than just about any other speaker I could name. 

jnschneyer

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Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #17 on: 4 Mar 2022, 07:37 pm »
Hi, catluck,

As I said, I can't legitimately pass judgement on the speakers or on anyone else's judgement of the speakers.  What I'm responding to is the writing, the phoniness, the lack of intellectual honesty, of honesty, period.  If you're going to set up as a writer, a critic, ostensibly in a position to influence people, then (I believe) you have an obligation to be honest and all that that implies.  That means checking yourself constantly - for false and specious premises, self-aggrandizing, self-congratulation, accuracy in detail and thoroughness in argument, appropriateness of diction, received ideas, bumpersticker or canned-corn thinking.  To be a critic, to guide people, even in something as socially trivial as high-end audio, is, to me, something of an awesome responsibility, and people who abuse that responsibility, regardless of the subject, deserve to be rigorously held to account.  That said, typically, especially in social media or online venues, I just let it go, as raising the issue more often than not results just more frustration.  But every now and again, as in this instance, I feel the urge to respond.  Does it "matter"?  Well, yeah, it does.  To me.  I don't mind reading something and finding out I disagree with it, but I do mind investing the time in reading something, only to find out at the end that the author had no intention of giving me any legitimate assessment or information, and in fact underhandedly caused me to participate in some strange vanity project of his or her own.  I'm sure someone will say I'm devoting far too much time and thought to something so easily dismissed, and, from one perspective, I'd agree.  But, from another, I'd say that understanding why and what about such writing is pernicious has everything to do with being able to think one's way through and around a subject and to recognize reliable writing or criticism from bad, to separate the wheat from the chaff.  I know this all sounds very high-flown and disproportionate to the transgression in question, but I think it's important to make clear that I'm not simply butt-hurt because he talked bad about some speakers.  And on that, it's time to go listen to some Bill Evans.

Josh

TKonrad.NOLA

Re: Down A Rabbit Hole?
« Reply #18 on: 5 Mar 2022, 03:28 pm »
I wish I hadn't watched that.  These guys are doing a disservice to the "community" and hobby.  I think audiophiles are the number one reason there aren't more audiophiles.