[cloudbaseracer]

I am curious what the prevailing thoughts are as to an alternative to a 4 sub system to control room modes WITHOUT using room treatments?  I don't have the ability or spouse's desire to put up the treatments.  Most are ugly anyway.  Of course, it is hard to hide 4 subwoofers as well.

By the way.... I am running GedLee Abbey with 4 of his bandpass subs currently. 3 of the subs are on listening level and the 4th is elevated about 11' per the Geddes methodology.

Thanks!!
James

[youngho]

Since you already have subs, depending on room configuration, you could consider single or double Source-to-Sink approach (https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/jaes_v60_5_perception_modal_control-pdf.2273992/), alternatively https://www.psiaudio.swiss/avaa-c20-active-bass-trap/ are relatively unobtrusive.

[cloudbaseracer]

I should have mentioned the PSI Audio AVAA as I have been looking at those too.  They are almost $3200 to so I am hesitant to buy a few without knowing a metric of how they compare to a sub.  And the size at Dimensions: 19.9" (509mm) H by 16.5" (424mm) W by 11.7" (300mm) D is not really a lot smaller than a sub.  But if 1 of those could take the place of 2 or 3 subs then that would be special.

[JLM]

What are the dimensions of your room?  What is the construction of your walls (windows, openings, drywall, stud spacing, etc.)?  What's the loudspeaker/listening setup?  Have you tried DSP?  What is the configuration of the subwoofers?

My room is 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci ratios), using a mid-field setup with loudspeakers 5ft from front wall and 8ft apart.  Have 3 subwoofers, one tight to a front corner, one 2.5ft from front corner, and one midway along the longer wall (all on the floor).  Also have ten GIK 2ft x 4ft 244 panels, six full rangers at first reflection points and four bass traps straddling the front corners.  In my "perfect" room the panels do little good no matter the configuration, but offer immediate improvement elsewhere.  Have tried a couple of DSP products but I and my small audio club were split on the sonic advantages.  However many swear by them (not Earl Geddes - he believes in physical means to solve physical problems). 

BTW GIK can offer custom fabrics/designs.  Choose treatments by the numbers, not by appearance.  IMO GIK and Owens Corning 703 high density fiberglass are the best available.

[youngho]

They mostly seem to be effective for the deepest room modes, which would be hardest to address with room treatments. Take a look at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh310-in-a-small-room-subs-ma1-absorbers-avaa.27288/, as well as https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/psi-avaa-c20-aktiver-bass-absorber-im-test/ (scroll through the figures to #5-10). Geddes' sub setup recommendations would cover a broader frequency range.

[lokie]

Do you have crawl space in ceiling or floor? I deploy infinite baffle's to good effect. Relatively cheap, very efficient  and totally hidden.

My next suggestion is to use multiple subs disguised in furniture... like a coffee table etc.. Or maybe small format horn loaded in a form that could be "hidden" behind a couch etc..

[cloudbaseracer]

This is a new speaker location I just setup.  Everything was in the corner to the left and facing the left window.  In this new configuration I have turned the subs way up and it sounds much better without boom I was getting before when in the left corner at a lower sub output.  The subs were not moved.  I believe that the boominess was caused by the mains?  I say this because they have more output now but are in the same position.  The bottom end is so full now even at low volumes.

The room is all brick, wood, glass and tin ceiling.  It is 30' from left to right as seen in this picture.  The bell tower on the far right has 3 arched openings and is not included in this measurement.  The window is 9' 6" wide and 18' at the top.  The ceiling slopes from 11' at the edges to the flat section at 18'.  The glass at the stairwell is at 19' 6" from the brick at the gothic window.

The speakers are 11' apart and right at 4' 8" to the center of the woofer from the front wall.  The listening position is around 11' back from the speakers and they are towed in quite a bit to cross in front of my face.  There is a rather large 5' x 5' coffee table in front of the sofa.  That is not great for sound I know and something my wife wants to get rid of.  She also would prefer to move the sofa forward a bit.  Perhaps I could close the triangle down some and still be fine?

I am keen to get something like the Spatial x3, X4 or X5 in this space and would mostly maintain this same configuration.  Those have much more bass than the Abbeys but I would still think I need subs for room mode control?

Thanks,
James

[guf]

my 4 subwoofer swarm disappears in with all the other speakers i have in my room. 

[guf]

my goodness that's a beautiful room!

[mick wolfe]

That's a beautiful space. Huge and very inviting, but I can only imagine it being very lively. Yes, you'd have to do a massive amount of passive room treatment, so I'd probably dismiss that.  Maybe try a larger, thicker area rug between the speakers and the listening position. Also, you could possibly try/audition the new Schiit 6 band tone control device. Other than that, it's on room correction devices in which I have no experience. (or interest for that matter)  Others may offer a different opinion though.

[Early B.]

This is a new speaker location I just setup. 

So..ummm...you live in a former church?? Amazing...

BTW -- you need 8 subs.

[Cappy]

Fabulous room!

When I see your room, I think of two things: 1) directional speakers, 2) room correction.  Directional speakers will keep the sound focused towards the listeners instead of bouncing around wrecking havoc.  Room correction will help a lot too.

The 8 subs Early recommends will also be good. 
 
My space is smaller, but like yours has very high ceilings, tons of windows, open plan to rest of house, hard surfaces.  Open baffle dipoles and/or horns/waveguides work great in combination with room correction in my room. 

[cloudbaseracer]

Yes, it is an old church.  8 subs would be overkill as I get plenty of output from the 4 and that is with the Abbeys that do not play that low as a 2 way.

I should have stated that the room is just over 41' x 41' with a walled area taken out for a bathroom and then an open kitchen. 

As for DSP, I am really strongly considering the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 with their Room Perfect which is said to be the very best implementation of room correction.  There is a guy on AC here that lives in Switzerland and he uses 3400 with the Spatial X3 and says it is all he could ever want or need.  Just not sure how analytical it may sound.  All reviews are top notch.

Guf -- I don't understand exactly what you are saying? By disappear do you mean properly integrate?  If so, that is not what I am talking about.  I am talking about trying to eliminate subs from a visual/architectural design aspect.

I guess my real lack of understanding is around my belief that I don't think very many people on Audio Circle and much less out there in the larger audiophile world use 3-4 subs to control room modes.  So I am trying to understand what is mostly done and what can or should be done.  Especially given my room dimensions.   Can it all be controlled with Room Perfect DSP and just mains like the X3, X4 or X5?  Or add just one Ripol or open baffle sub?  I am sure a popular answer is "You will just have to experiment" which I get but you guys have a lot of knowledge so a proper starting point and understanding of what the end may look like is a smart initial approach.

Thanks!!
James

[Early B.]

The multiple sub approach is your best option, although they're hard to hide. Whatever you decide will come with compromises. I use 3 dual OB servo subs, but in your space, I don't think open baffle subs are the answer unless you build something like triple 6's which would be very cool in your space, but they come bundled with divorce papers. I agree with you -- my first choice for speaker options in your room would be the Spatial X3 with some tube gear glistening in the background. Wow!!!   

[WGH]

A starting point:

Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers by Todd Welti and Allan Devantier
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0

[JLM]

A starting point:

Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers by Todd Welti and Allan Devantier
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0

Welti worked with Floyd Toole, another well respected acoustician.  Suggest reading his book "Sound Reproduction" (either edition) to learn more about the how's and why's of using multiple subwoofers.  Churches are designed to have unique acoustics (lots of echo) that you may not be able to resolve.