[Don_S]

Without a lengthy discussion of equipment can vinyl fans tell me what they think of the quality of original pop/rock vinyl from the 60-80s?

Here is my experience. I have over 300 albums from the 60's-80's. Some have been trashed by old players but many have only been played once or twice to archive to cassette tape. I had not played any of them for many years because my TT failed.

Recently I decided to return to vinyl for several reasons. I was setting up a second system in my new home and decided to not duplicate my digital but go in a different direction. Hey, it made sense to create something entirely different. I had a lot of albums that were not available on CD or I did not have CDs for. The best music I heard at shows was usually vinyl with tubes so why not.   

I purchased a modest, but not bottom model, TT, cartridge and phono cable. It was set up by a local dealer friend who had 24 TTs in his showroom. He is a vinyl fan and not a dealer who had a few TTs because customers demanded it.

I purchased a cleaner and new sleeves and cleaned 100 albums before playing. I was very disappointed with the results through the phono stage of my integrated so I purchased a well-respected, tube phono stage. Not a cheap one by any standard at almost $5K. The results still sucked. I was not only far from what I heard at shows but far from anything I was used to listening to from my digital music server. I should note my server is arguably one of the best made.

Now the dealer tells me old vinyl is crap and I have to purchase all new vinyl to get good sound. That is not going to happen. I will sell everything before I put one more penny into vinyl.

Equipment issue? Dealer did not say my cartridge was faulty so I assume it is OK and it was installed new on the new TT.  Dealer did remove the rubber mat and set the TT up for using the naked heavy aluminum platter. I have not made any adjustments since the dealer set up the TT.

The albums are not noisy like I expected. I picked what I thought would be the newest and best. Everything sounds flat. Very one-dimensional. Yes, some of my old CDs sound that way too. This is not remotely close to what I have heard at shows. FYI, the rest of my system is well above average and good CDs copied to my server are outstanding. My standards are now high.

I am sorry I ever fell down the vinyl rabbit hole but I need to make a decision.
Do I have an equipment problem or a source (vinyl) problem? A discussion of equipment possibilities would be endless and fruitless. So please let's focus on the source material. I know quality can vary but in general is old vinyl is worth listening to? What are you using?

Thanks for any help.

Don

[toocool4]

You don’t need to buy new LP’s to hear great sounds from LP’s.
Gear setup and matching also helps to get great sound.

No one can help you, because no one knows what you have. You say you have great this the best that, means nothing to anyone. You need to start naming what you’ve got, then maybe others that have similar can say oh it works with this but not with that. So far you are so vague, you might as well have said nothing.

[Bob2]

"Gear setup and matching Gear setup and matching"

+1

[VinceT]

Vinyl should be comperable (at the very least not terrible) to digital unless the record is trashed. But older records can sound really good too.

So I would say there is something with the set up or equipment that isn't allowing you get the full potential. New carts, phono cables etc. need some time to break in also

[dwmaggie]

Sounds like something is mismatched or not quite aligned.  Do you have the tools to check the set up; stylus scale, alignment protractor?  As others have asked, what brand of TT, cart, int, and phono preamp?  More data, please.

[mav52]

I've got old Yardbirds LP's that still play like the day I got them in 1965.

[orthobiz]

Old vinyl is great. There was a quality dip apparently as oil prices/availability fluctuated over the years. And some plants recycled unsold vinyl, impurities etc.

In general earlier pressings are better. Columbia deep red label 2-eye or 6-eye pressings better than the more orange-red label with Columbia all around it, etc. Rabbit hole? Do some searches on stevehoffman.tv and you'll see ratings of various issues.

Plus the earlier pressings had the original engineers, maybe even the artists involved. Later pressings were taken possibly from who-knows-what master tape. F'rinst: look for jackets without the UPC labels. Or without hype stickers (like green label JT Fire and Rain, no sticker saying "contains the hit Fire and Rain).

BUT if all of it sounds like garbage, maybe the TT is not properly set up, regardless of the dealer and how many TTs they sell.

Of late I have subscribed to the philosophy behind WallyTools. JR Boisclair at that company is available to discuss issues you may have: wallyanalog.com

Don't give up and do post what equipment you have. You'll avoid posts criticizing the absence of specifics.

Paul

[twitch54]

along with what everyone else has said so far I'll add my 2 cents. You stated that you 'purchased a cleaner' , OK what does that mean ? a RCM, a brush or a cute looking blonde in a French Maids outfit ? !

My point is this, old Lp's NEED a thorough and proper cleaning !!

[nature boy]

Sounds like a set up issue, not the records. Make sure TT is level (I use a T bubble level). Check to make sure your vertical tracking force is within the cartridge recommended range (usually 1.8  - 2.2g for most). I use an inexpensive digital scale to measure. Also check that your cartridge loading matches well with the phono preamp loading in your integrated. There may be incompatibility, particularly if you use a low output cartridge and your phone preamp doesn't have enough gain.

Also check your cartridge stylus and tip. It could be the stylus is bent, the suspension has broken (should be firm to the touch with clearance to cartridge shell) and the diamond tip has worn down (you'll need a hand held magnifier to inspect properly). If there is clear damage, you'll need a retipping or cartridge rebuild.

Check your tonearm height and adjust by ear. If it's set too low, bass will be too prominent. If too high, treble will be too prominent. Takes some time to find the sweet spot.

Finally, if everything checks out, you'll likely need to realign the cartridge. There are many options available out there. Alternatively, you can get a local shop with a good turntable tech to do this.

NB

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Agree with all that has been said.

It could be the cartridge is not a good match for the TT.  Is it a high or low compliance cartridge?  Also, try the TT with the rubber mat.

Is the anti-skate set right.  Is the alignment of the cartridge correct?  A $5k phono cartridge should have settings on it.  Are they correct for the cartridge?

Also, a cartridge needs break in.  I own 2 Nagaoka cartridges and the company recommends 30 hours of play.   And to be honest, both sounded like crap for the first 15-20 hours and then they blossomed and sound great. The company was spot on about the 30 hour mark where the sound peaked.  Your phono pre may need break in as well as capacitors definitely break in.

Vinyl recordings vary in quality just like digital.  A lot of RR was recorded like crap.

Are the interconnects from your TT to the phono pre low or high capacitance?  Ideally, they should be low.

It would help to know your gear.

[gene9p]

I actually enjoy older pressings better than their new remastered 180 gram releases. Sure I have some old scratchy lps from days past, but I do play them once in a while because of their meaning to me and the time I bought them. I find some great old vinyl in stores nearby. I look them over carefully and clean them b4 dropping the needle. There are some real treasures out there that are in like new condition. Some look like they have never been played and are in bargain bins 4 for a dollar and some a dollar each. When I tell people that the record they are listening to was pressed some 50 years ago they are astonished. I have some very high end gear and my TT is a VPI Classic 2 with Nordost Valhalla wiring and I use Soundsmith Boheme and Ortofon 2M black cartridges right now.

[Don_S]

along with what everyone else has said so far I'll add my 2 cents. You stated that you 'purchased a cleaner' , OK what does that mean ? a RCM, a brush or a cute looking blonde in a French Maids outfit ? !

My point is this, old Lp's NEED a thorough and proper cleaning !!

Lose the attitude. It is not helpful, especially to you. I know the difference between a cleaner and a brush.

[Don_S]

Thanks to everyone who answered my initial question with respect and thoughtfulness. That was helpful. I now know the vinyl I have is worthy.

Doing remote research on equipment matching is not what I ever intended from this thread. If I say I have "A" then someone will say I need "B" and someone else will say "B" sucks and I need "C". In my mind an equipment mismatch would lead to less than optimum results but not the poor sound I have now.

My next step is to find someone local who is more experienced than me. I can have them check my setup and learn firsthand.

Thanks again.

Don

[Freo-1]

Thanks to everyone who answered my initial question with respect and thoughtfulness. That was helpful. I now know the vinyl I have is worthy.

Doing remote research on equipment matching is not what I ever intended from this thread. If I say I have "A" then someone will say I need "B" and someone else will say "B" sucks and I need "C". In my mind an equipment mismatch would lead to less than optimum results but not the poor sound I have now.

My next step is to find someone local who is more experienced than me. I can have them check my setup and learn firsthand.

Thanks again.

Don

Sounds reasonable. Best to have a local pro set up the table correctly. 


FWIW, back when I was into vinyl, I found Grado cartridges to be a very good value at all price points.


Good Luck,  and let us know how you go with this. 

[dB Cooper]

In their heyday, Mobile Fidelity did their pressings overseas supposedly because USA environmental regs prevented the use of the highest grade vinyl.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

One last thing, maybe there is something wrong with the phono preamp.  I am not saying that it is a bad match but maybe it is defective.

[Freo-1]

One last thing, maybe there is something wrong with the phono preamp.  I am not saying that it is a bad match but maybe it is defective.

The OP stated similar behavior with two different phono stages.  My first impression would be to investigate the TT setup.

[Don_S]

One last thing, maybe there is something wrong with the phono preamp.  I am not saying that it is a bad match but maybe it is defective.

I got similar results with the phono input in my integrated and the separate phono stage. The separate component was better but still terrible. I was shocked.

[qdrone]

Without a lengthy discussion of equipment can vinyl fans tell me what they think of the quality of original pop/rock vinyl from the 60-80s?

Here is my experience. I have over 300 albums from the 60's-80's. Some have been trashed by old players but many have only been played once or twice to archive to cassette tape. I had not played any of them for many years because my TT failed.

Recently I decided to return to vinyl for several reasons. I was setting up a second system in my new home and decided to not duplicate my digital but go in a different direction. Hey, it made sense to create something entirely different. I had a lot of albums that were not available on CD or I did not have CDs for. The best music I heard at shows was usually vinyl with tubes so why not.   

I purchased a modest, but not bottom model, TT, cartridge and phono cable. It was set up by a local dealer friend who had 24 TTs in his showroom. He is a vinyl fan and not a dealer who had a few TTs because customers demanded it.

I purchased a cleaner and new sleeves and cleaned 100 albums before playing. I was very disappointed with the results through the phono stage of my integrated so I purchased a well-respected, tube phono stage. Not a cheap one by any standard at almost $5K. The results still sucked. I was not only far from what I heard at shows but far from anything I was used to listening to from my digital music server. I should note my server is arguably one of the best made.

Now the dealer tells me old vinyl is crap and I have to purchase all new vinyl to get good sound. That is not going to happen. I will sell everything before I put one more penny into vinyl.

Equipment issue? Dealer did not say my cartridge was faulty so I assume it is OK and it was installed new on the new TT.  Dealer did remove the rubber mat and set the TT up for using the naked heavy aluminum platter. I have not made any adjustments since the dealer set up the TT.

The albums are not noisy like I expected. I picked what I thought would be the newest and best. Everything sounds flat. Very one-dimensional. Yes, some of my old CDs sound that way too. This is not remotely close to what I have heard at shows. FYI, the rest of my system is well above average and good CDs copied to my server are outstanding. My standards are now high.

I am sorry I ever fell down the vinyl rabbit hole but I need to make a decision.
Do I have an equipment problem or a source (vinyl) problem? A discussion of equipment possibilities would be endless and fruitless. So please let's focus on the source material. I know quality can vary but in general is old vinyl is worth listening to? What are you using?

Thanks for any help.

Don

Yeah Old Vinyl in my system sounds awesome. The other night i cleaned an Original Atomic Rooster album,near 50 years old, on a VPI cyclone and it sounded amazing. My advice, take your turntable to someone else and have them check the over hang,azimuth and see if its off.  Look if someone who works on my turntable tells me old records sound crappy wouldn't get near my table with a ten foot pole.

[SET Man]

....

Now the dealer tells me old vinyl is crap and I have to purchase all new vinyl to get good sound. That is not going to happen. I will sell everything before I put one more penny into vinyl.
....

Hey!

    That's a weird thing for a dealer of who you said is a vinyl fan to say. I have some old vinyl LPs that sound great. I got into vinyl back in the early '90s and I actually replaced some of the CDs of the same album with LPs because I like the sound of vinyl better, but not always though.

Equipment issue? Dealer did not say my cartridge was faulty so I assume it is OK and it was installed new on the new TT.  Dealer did remove the rubber mat and set the TT up for using the naked heavy aluminum platter. I have not made any adjustments since the dealer set up the TT.

   
    Turntable is a finicky thing. Even though your dealer set up the TT for you. By the time you get it home and put it on the shelf, things could have gone off spec from moving it around, like the tracking force... too heavy can make sound dull, too light can make sound bright, mistracking and distort. And if you're using MC cart than we have to talk about loading. Yes, if you know any local audio guys with some experience setting turntable, it is worth to get a second check.

    Anyway, good luck and don't sell those old LPs yet!

Buddy