[randog]

So, I've gotten back into audio in the last couple of years since the days back when names like McIntosh and Marantz were king (or so I think) and vinyl was the source for serious listeners.

One thing I didn't get when I started looking at the lightyear differences of new gear vs the old... none of the preamps have tone controls! Why? I've heard it said that audiophiles want to hear the 'true' source and that tone controls only add unwanted and undesireable componentry and noise.

Yet when I listen to many of my CD's, my untrained ears hear bad recordings and engineering flaws that I am able to modify to suit what I believe is closer to 'real' with tone controls. At least it sounds better to this layman's ears.

So if an audiophile really knows what sounds good and what good should sound like, why would he limit himself from being able to modify the source to try to better a shitty recording or to get closer to what he feels sounds better? Muffled bass? Compressed treble? I've managed to make both sound better by fiddling with the two demon dials. At least it sounds better to this layman's ears.

When I first saw the AVA T7-ECR and the fact that it had tone controls I let out a great big 1977 smile.   Enlighten me Frank, why did you put them there?

I guess I'm just a bit of a control freak.  

[skrivis]

So, I've gotten back into audio in the last couple of years since the days back when names like McIntosh and Marantz were king (or so I think) and vinyl was the source for serious listeners.

One thing I didn't get when I started looking at the lightyear differences of new gear vs the old... none of the preamps have tone controls! Why? I've heard it said that audiophiles want to hear the 'true' source and that tone controls only add unwanted and undesireable componentry and noise.

Yet when I listen to  ...

I'm sure AVA provided tone controls on some models because some people wanted them.

I have an old T2 preamp with tone controls, but I never actually used them very much. When I purchased an OmegaStar preamp, I looked at the price difference to get tone controls and decided it really wasn't worth it to me. Just my personal preference...

[randog]

Wow, I thought I might get some real insights here about this. I'm truly confused about this. Is it too basic to think that tone controls can help tweak recordings that are not optimized in engineering or even just for your own setup <gasp!> and I'm just not educated enough to know that? (actually I do know that you have limited control as you are changing frequency output on a large scale which is a big compromise, but if it's just enough to get that shimmer on the cymbal that's missing otherwise, then wtf)

If not, then why is everyone paying thousands upon thousands to finely tweak their systems to the nth degree when you are still held at the complete mercy of the source? Does anyone agree that a fair percentage of the source material is in many ways flawed? If so, then what are you doing about it (besides either pretending it's not there or avoiding that recording altogether)? Thanks for the insights.

[skrivis]

Wow, I thought I might get some real insights here about this. I'm truly confused about this. Is it too basic to think that tone controls can help tweak recordings that are not optimized in engineering or even just for your own setup <gasp!> and I'm just not educated enough to know that? (actually I do know that you have limited control as you are changing frequency output on a large scale which is a big compromise, but if it's just enough to get that shimmer on the cymbal that's missing otherwise, th ...

I just don't find that standard tone controls work very well to compensate for off-kilter recordings.

The hi and low filters included on the EC amps would come in handy for some sources like LPs... I consider them quite useful.

Equalize my own setup? Well, I have mostly AVA electronics, so I don't feel I need to be compensating for anything there. My speakers are less room-sensitive than many, so no problem there either.

Even of there were issues, I'm not convinced that tone controls could solve them.

So what are tone controls for? Beats the heck out of me!

I have honestly never found them useful, and never found that they had a beneficial effect when used.

That's just my opinion though. I'm certainly not saying that people shouldn't use tone controls, just that I don't. Sorry if that doesn't give you "real insights."

[budyog]

My opinion on tone controls is that I have never felt with all the upgrades in amps, dacs, preamps, speakers that I have made over the years that I feel I have had no need to increase or decrease the tone, let alone pay extra for it.
Note: I only play cd/dvd, not records, that may be different.
These improvements seem to have brought out the better of bad recordings or I waite and buy the remastered version of the remasterd version of the remastered version.
I still believe, less is more when it comes to highfidelity.

I too have had them in the past and all they seem to do by not being used is that eventually they got dirty and caused problems. More to go wrong!
I wonder if Frank has ever thought about a T7 integrated with a 350 or 550 to eliminate even the preamp/amp situation! oh, include a massive 4 gauge power cord.

[WEEZ]

randog (and all),

I currently have tone controls on my integrated. Never use them. I've got a balance control. I never use it either.

But I can certainly understand why controls could be helpful in taming a 'hot' recording or a noisy FM broadcast- or surface noise on older LP's or tapes, etc. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

That's probably why Frank offers the EC versions of his pre-amps.

Remember the 'loudness' controls of old?

WEEZ

[skrivis]

If not, then why is everyone paying thousands upon thousands to finely tweak their systems to the nth degree when you are still held at the complete mercy of the source? Does anyone agree that a fair percentage of the source material is in many ways flawed? If so, then what are you doing about it (besides either pretending it's not there or avoiding that recording altogether)? Thanks for the insights.

I suspect I am well toward the low end when it comes to spending money. I also don't find that most things need to be finely tweaked.

Yes, I am held at the mercy of the source. But I don't stand much chance of correcting the source with the tools at hand.

So I just accept it for what it is. If it's really horrible, I don't listen to it very much or at all.

I actually tend to find poorly equalized recordings less objectionable than those where someone got carried away with the compressor-limiter. So now you know _my_ pet peeve. LOL

I'd be interested in hearing your comments. Some early CDs may have been made by mistake with the pre-emphasis that was used in the vinyl days. Maybe some are still being made that way...

Have you found that tone controls can help with this sort of thing?

[Rob Babcock]

I haven't used tone controls in years.  I'm not against them, per se, but I guess I'm too lazy to get up and change the setting from disc to disc.  I use some parametric EQ for the subs and have things set for pretty flat response.  

Maybe if the tone controls worked from the remote...that would be interesting.  But overall I just don't really need them.  Still, I have no problem with people using them.  If it sounds good to you, it is good.  Period.

[zeke]

I guess i am in the minority camp. I use my tone controls and balance control on my t7 pre once in awhile when i think it is needed. I think they are useful options. Most of the time when i do use them, i am tweaking for more treble, so i guess my room may be too "dead".  So the controls can be used not only for source deficiencies, but room problems. Since they can be switched out of the circuit, i really don't understand why most people are so against them.

[randog]

I agree that the better the components the less I feel the need for tweaking. I have the factory stereo in my truck and I'm tweaking the tone controls every few minutes it seems.

My current pre doesn't have tone controls and I'm not missing them much, but much of that is because it has 3 gain settings and my Marchand xo is almost like having tone controls for bass so at least I feel I have some freedom (or control) even if it's not needed. Did I tell you I'm a control freak?  

[skrivis]

I too have had them in the past and all they seem to do by not being used is that eventually they got dirty and caused problems. More to go wrong!

I wonder if Frank has ever thought about a T7 integrated with a 350 or 550 to eliminate even the preamp/amp situation! oh, include a massive 4 gauge power cord

The nice thing about the tone controls on AVA equipment is that they can be switched completely out of the circuit. Even if they do get noisy, they won't cause problems in normal operation. (A shot of Cramolin or DeOxit will clean up most pots if you have trouble.)

There was a small integrated amp. I believe that it simply used a high gain amp circuit, which eliminated the need for preamp circuitry.

I also remember tales of Frank carrying around a little integrated amp (Dynaco chassis) in his briefcase at CES and embarrassing some other vendors. (I don't think that was the intent, but it sure worked. LOL)

[Elisha]

One reason for using tone controls that may apply only to us old folks is that in my old age I find I am sharply losing hearing higher frequencies.  Tone controls could compensate for this

[avahifi]

We supply the EC version preamps with tone controls because some people want tone controls and there is almost no competition for this  --- few other choices.  We can do it well and at a reasonable price and so we do it.  Of course its a bigger unit with a few more functions too and many people like this.

I suspect that 90% of the EC owners never turn the tone control circuits on at all.

Frank Van Alstine

[nathanm]

Frank - So what kind of EQ is it?  Shelving?  What frequencies are affected?  What's the boost\cut range?  Just curious.  

I'd suspect that if a person has the freedom to play music at a good SPL then tone controls probably aren't necessary, but at lower volumes goosing the bass & treble seems to sound 'right'. (the Fletcher Munson thing )

I've only heard one set of tone controls I really liked and thought sounded natural when boosted, (NAD 3225) but some others I've run across sound harsh and nasty.  I would hope nobody would entertain the idea that tone controls in general can correct "bad recordings" although I honestly think there are really not very many truly bad recordings out there, just ones that are not to an individual taste.  A broad boost or cut at the frequency extremes is just a very general, overall tonal coloraton thing that you might leave unchanged for most of the time and not tweak and fidget with constantly.  Just two knobs is fine.  Any more than that and you've got too much rope...

Way too much technical gubbins for me, but this article has some interesting EQ stuff, albeit for headphones.  That tilt control filter looks pretty cool.  http://www.headwize.com/projects/equal_prj.htm

[WEEZ]

nathanm,

I could see where tone controls might be useful for taming some older recordings especially if those recordings are on tape w/o Dolby; or are vinyl pressings from the big band era where some high frequency sounds need some help, ( or maybe the lows, too, for that matter ).. But some of the vocals from that era sound like a clothespin was used to pinch their nose, or something. I don't know what can be done about that.

I like the 17" faceplate of the EC chassis better only because it 'fits-in' better with most other gear. I've mentioned before, that I have tone controls on my old (and tired) Proton integrated (which is based on the NAD amplifiers) and I rarely use them. It has a loudness contour which I don't use either. And a balance control which I don't use. But I got 'em if I need 'em!

 For some music collectors- I can see why filters and controls could be useful. If the T-8 was offered in the EC version- I'd probably consider it. I have some old and treasured recordings. Maybe I'll have to consider the 'revised' T-7 (T-9?). I'm saving my money. It'll be one or the other...

Frank is correct- almost nobody offers controls on high end gear anymore. McIntosh is the only one I can think of and their gear costs much more than AVA gear.

(I enjoyed your link re: headwize..)

WEEZ

[JLM]

Tone controls are evolutionary leftovers.  (You wanted to stir things up, right?)  They provide only crude adjustments and were developed before we had transistors, ICs, or computers that could offer way more control.  They compensated for crummy speakers in bad environments (like typical car systems of today).

Tone controls were used for room correction, speaker correction, and/or recording correction.  If you want to EQ the room (better to use treatments anyway) or EQ speakers (better to buy ones that are flat to start with) or EQ individual recordings (frequency response balance of recordings is just the start of what can/should be fixed in most recordings) you can do it better in the digital realm (between transport and DAC).  If you don't like the studio engineering of the recording, don't listen to it.  With only two tracks you're really in no position to remix from home.

Loudness is another beast all together, but again very crude.  Why would you want it to "sound loud" (emphasize bass/treble as per Fletcher/Munson) when its not loud?  Is that weird or what?

[nathanm]

It's a matter of what the goal is.  Complex, technical, objective  calibration of the system or a simpler, subjective alteration of the frequency balance to suit the listener's taste.

In the latter goal  a crude adjustment is all that's desired from a tone control; a tweak of the treble and bass.  Subtle, subjective improvement in the tone in the broadest sense.

If the goal is the first kind, then it's true that you can do involved EQ in the digital realm.  I have to admire the people who have the patience for this stuff.  I could only take a few days of my digital EQ\room correction unit before I went loony.  Too much rope!

Why would you want it to "sound loud" (emphasize bass/treble as per Fletcher/Munson) when its not loud? Is that weird or what?

You don't, and it doesn't, it just sounds more balanced in the frequency realm, not the amplitude realm.  If anything the hardcore peak limiting makes things sound "loud" even when played back at low volumes. (I call it "crammed") Unfortunately excessive compression is applied at the mastering stage and unlike frequency balance it cannot be "undone" on the user's end as easily.  Kinda like in Photoshop.  You can tweak the midrange curves all you want and as long as you don't clip the shadows and highlights you can usually undo most of your changes.  But once the dynamic range has been altered you can't get it back.

[WEEZ]

I don't hardly think that tone controls are used for 'room' correction by serious audiophiles. Or 'speaker' correction, either, for that matter.

I'll buy 'recording' correction, though. There are many recordings of music I like that leave much to be desired as far as the 'recording' is concerned.

And most of the time- I still listen to these recordings without tone adjustments.

"If you don't like the studio engineering of the recording, don't listen to it".
(You can't be serious ).

There is plenty of complex equalization going on in the studios today. Most of it is digital. Thankfully I don't like much of that stuff 'cause it ain't music to me. ( Well, with maybe one or two exceptions ).

I collect music from the '20's up thru today's music. Jazz of all types. Blues. R&B. Classical. Vocals. Some Rock (not much). Like I said, some older recordings need some 'help'. I try not to 'help' it too much

The music is still more important than the equipment, right?

WEEZ

[nathanm]

Would a videophile object to the presence of brightness, contrast and tint controls (and then some) on his TV set or projector?  

Of course it is important to make sure you have the lights and darks correct and a neutral gray balance across as much of the range as possible.  Still, within a small range of variance one person may be bothered by chalky looking shadows where another person might find that means more detail. To an extent the brightness knob on a display is analagous to the tone control concept.  No, it's not exactly the same thing, but similar.

If we really wanted to go super purist and make the music playback a 1:1 ratio to the mastering room we might as well calibrate the level and yank the volume knob off too, and force everybody to experience the same SPLs at the same distance that the engineers did!  Cause that's the way they intended for us to listen, right?  Hmmm...I doubt that would fly in most people's homes.  Can you imagine going from some old jazz record made in the 1930s to a modern pop record without having control over the volume?  Ouch!

[WEEZ]

nathanm- good analogy.

WEEZ