[Mike 1960]

Mike, I'll send you a PM with more info.
S Clark

Thanks. This is starting to get some momentum. I like it. LOL
The good the bad and the ????

[Mike 1960]

Building a pair of speakers, especially line sourse speakers, is going to involve a lot of planning, discussion, knowledge and skill.
And I'm getting the feeling you're already in way over your head with such a project.

Most of us here simply dont have that level ok skill or knowledge to really help you.

Giving Danny a call will be your best option to help get you get a plan started, as well as asking around on "The Lab" circle and "the planar" circle and asking around on other forums to get more of the information and recommendations for picking out the drivers and how to design the crossover from scratch. Etc.

Thank you Hobbs. As many of you in my boat don't have the knowledge, but I have the skill in cabinmate building. I think. You don't give up ever.

[Mike 1960]

This is going to take a long time to get right.

[Mike 1960]

I have never heard a line array that impressed me, at any price. All have had bizarre imaging behavior, usually with the sound seeming to come from a clothesline strung between the tops of the towers, a problem that worsens the closer you get. Same goes for MTM towers dnd more complex variations on that approach. Dynamic, planar, doesn't matter, both suffer from this. Worst of all, I seem to be the only one responding this way. No thanks.

So, what do you suggest?

[Danny Richie]

If the OP want's to stick 50 full range drivers in 2 tall boxes then DIY Audio has all the info he needs to get started.

The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-towers-25-driver-range-line-array.html

50 drivers at $9.80 each - Peerless by Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer


But wait...there's more over at AVS Forum

"The easiest build would be 16 Vifa [Peerless] 3.5 inch full ranges in a quick and dirty sealed box with parametric EQ."

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/are-there-any-diy-line-source-not-line-array-speaker-designs-out-there.3207394/page-2#post-60886727

And if you order within the next 15 minutes you get a 2 free gifts:

Design Guidelines for Practical Near Field Line Arrays by James R. Griffin, Ph.D.
www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf

The downside to DIY Line Arrays
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/28345-the-downside-to-diy-line-arrays

That doesn't work at all.

I shoot a video on that type of configuration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V4Jw2sl0Cg&t=369s

[Mike 1960]

I realize I should clarify: it is not that line arrays are hard to mechanically build. It is that they are hard to design. If the curve of the baffle is a few degrees off, if the drivers are slightly too close, etc, then you just get a horror show of comb filtering.

Ok, wow again. You guys are just trying to get me to give up. I get it. My dream is over.... Not!

[Danny Richie]

You know, we have a DIY kit that offers the best attributes of a line source with the best attributes of a point source and in an open baffle...

I've been doing this for a while now and we've reached higher and higher performance levels within the last few years and are well past even some of the great models like the LS-6 and LS-9 models that we introduced many years ago.

[Mike 1960]

Mike - line arrays are basically the hardest speakers to make. They have a huge amount of math and design needed to make them work because they are not just a couple cones, they are cones acting in super weird interaction with each other. Coming on a forum and asking for help with it is a high challenge. It would be like going on a forum for people who make kit cars and asking for help making a helicopter. Folks get the mechanics and can kinda point you in the right direction, but it is jumping in deep and you can't expect people to help you through that.

Thanks for contributing Noah. I get that. But asking questions is never a bad thing. Just seeing what people have to say helps in ways that help me decide how to go forward.
I guess all I'm asking is experiences and what they have learned from it. As I've said before. It's a hobby, it's for fun!

[dB Cooper]

Have you heard the NX-Treme's? Mine sound unbelievable and I'm sitting very close to them. They also have fantastic imaging - best I've ever heard.

I haven't. The only opportunity to do so would be if GR Research were to show at Capital Audiofest which AFAIK they've never done. If they sound good close, that's an accomplishment, as in all the ones I've heard, the problems get more severe the closer you get.

[dB Cooper]

So, what do you suggest?

Stick to designs from people who have experience and have put in the 'sweat equity'. Speaker design is part engineering expertise and part black art and seat-of-the-pants intuition. Both take a big investment of time and (usually) money to acquire. While I applaud your ambition, you are very unlikely to get to the 'best sound ever' unless you put that time in too. Judging by what I've heard from experienced, well-known designers, you may not get it even then. Just building the thing will be a challenge to say nothing of designing the bugger. And look over at diyaudio dot com also; people there have built everything. If you are just looking to have some fun making some sawdust, disregard everything I just said.

[subsonic1050]

I haven't. The only opportunity to do so would be if GR Research were to show at Capital Audiofest which AFAIK they've never done. If they sound good close, that's an accomplishment, as in all the ones I've heard, the problems get more severe the closer you get.

You should try to audition them somewhere if you can - check out the owners list thread to see if anyone is near you. I listen to mine near field and they are absolutely incredible.

[WGH]

I was wondering "What is a line source speaker?" So I Googled the question. Maybe multiple full range drivers using a cone design are the wrong tool to get the job done.

Line sources by Paul McGowan of PS Audio - August 22, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/line-sources/

In the link above Paul answers a question from Kevin:
    “Arnie Nudell popularized the line source loudspeaker design and many of his most revered speakers such as the Quantum Line Source, the IRS 1B, the IRS V, and the Genesis 1 (and apparently at least the two larger members of your forthcoming AN series loudspeakers) are all line source designs. Why don’t we see more line source loudspeaker designs? Is it strictly due to the cost because of the many more drivers, the larger cabinet, the increased manufacturing labor cost – or are there other attributes that have made them less popular?”


Infinity’s first line source by Paul McGowan - August 23, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/line-sources/

In 1976 Infinity released a new type of speaker called the Quantum Line Source, or QLS



Quasi line source by Paul McGowan - August 24, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/quasi-line-source/

The QLS and 4.5 next to one another



Hair standing on end by Paul McGowan - August 25, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/hair-standing-on-end/

Infinity RS-1 - "As you can see by this picture everything about the speaker cries “line source” except the tweeters."



Without design compromise by Paul McGowan - August 26, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/without-design-compromise/

Infinity IRS

[Mike 1960]

Stick to designs from people who have experience and have put in the 'sweat equity'. Speaker design is part engineering expertise and part black art and seat-of-the-pants intuition. Both take a big investment of time and (usually) money to acquire. While I applaud your ambition, you are very unlikely to get to the 'best sound ever' unless you put that time in too. Judging by what I've heard from experienced, well-known designers, you may not get it even then. Just building the thing will be a challenge to say nothing of designing the bugger. And look over at diyaudio dot com also; people there have built everything. If you are just looking to have some fun making some sawdust, disregard everything I just said.

Indeed! White coat, black art. Science and the unknown part right. Ya, I'm getting it more and more. Sigh, I do like making sawdust and the challenge but I certainly hope for some success of course. I have to say that I have not built anything beyond a 3 way MTM. But I wanted to move forward. If one doesn't challenge himself how else do you move forward.
I'm glad to hear you applaud my ambition. That's how this industry moves forward. Someone who doesn't know the limitations and what the deniers say then breaks them.
I certainly don't think I am one of those people but you get what I mean right?




Built in 1985.

[Mike 1960]

I was wondering "What is a line source speaker?" So I Googled the question. Maybe multiple full range drivers using a cone design are the wrong tool to get the job done.

Line sources by Paul McGowan of PS Audio - August 22, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/line-sources/

In the link above Paul answers a question from Kevin:
    “Arnie Nudell popularized the line source loudspeaker design and many of his most revered speakers such as the Quantum Line Source, the IRS 1B, the IRS V, and the Genesis 1 (and apparently at least the two larger members of your forthcoming AN series loudspeakers) are all line source designs. Why don’t we see more line source loudspeaker designs? Is it strictly due to the cost because of the many more drivers, the larger cabinet, the increased manufacturing labor cost – or are there other attributes that have made them less popular?”

I love it.


Infinity’s first line source by Paul McGowan - August 23, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/line-sources/

In 1976 Infinity released a new type of speaker called the Quantum Line Source, or QLS



Quasi line source by Paul McGowan - August 24, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/quasi-line-source/

The QLS and 4.5 next to one another



Hair standing on end by Paul McGowan - August 25, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/hair-standing-on-end/

Infinity RS-1 - "As you can see by this picture everything about the speaker cries “line source” except the tweeters."



Without design compromise by Paul McGowan - August 26, 2018
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/without-design-compromise/

Infinity IRS

[Mike 1960]

Actually I think the size of them appalls the wives. That's my experience.

[WGH]

Have you watched Danny's tech talk:

Tech Talk 13: Line Source AND Line Array Loudspeakers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bwU5HagoQo

You will need a note pad to keep track of all the info

[S Clark]

I'm lucky that I've heard the models in the video, and live with the original LS9 speakers.  My LS9 speakers are still right there with everything but the Line Force model.  It stands alone. 
But Wilson's, Magicos, TAD's, while certainly excellent, are not better. More like comparing chocolate to vanilla.  I can't say I've lived with them, but I have heard them for more than a few minutes. 
Would I swap for a different GR model? Maybe the Super 7's--- not so much better but more adaptable in placement. 

[NoahH]

Mike - I think the biggest advice for if you are trying to do a Line source is don't start off building a speaker. Buy a few of the drivers and experiment with just a handful of drivers in throw-away baffles to start learning. Also read EVERYTHING you can find on beaming, comb filtering and generally how emissions from drivers behave.

Everyone is so against this because these only work because you get really subtle wave interactions working, where that is a function of angle of the drivers, distance, and all the driver behaviors themselves. You really simply will not get it right on a first try, and it is not as forgiving as regular box speakers are of error, so if you are really committed, the first thing is to play around understanding how arrays of drivers interact before you start to worry about an actual speaker.

I still think that is super difficult, and I am ignoring the crossover stuff on this (all the behaviors of those waves change with frequency making it even harder), but that trial and error on a few drivers is at least a way to start.

Again, read everything you can on beaming too.

[WGH]

Who is this young man?



October 2007 - Danny is shown standing next to the GR Research LS6. Priced at $4500/pair, the speakers feature eight 6.5” woofers and six planar magnetic drivers. The LS6 not only boasts a 20Hz–20kHz frequency response, but also features bass drivers that are adjustable according to what the room and system can handle. https://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2007/101407gr/index.html


The Bozak Concert Grand B-410 loudspeaker from the early 1960's is one of the first commercial speaker designs that used a line array. As big as two refrigerators, weighing 225 lbs., each speaker had eight 2" B-200Y Dual Treble aluminum-diaphragm tweeters, two 5¼" B-209B aluminum-cone midrange units, four 12" B-199A variable-density (pulp made from lambs’ wool and shredded paper) cone woofers in a sealed cabinet for a 28Hz low range.

Stereophile has a 2005 review: https://www.stereophile.com/historical/1005bozak/index.html

There is currently a pair of  Bozak Concert Grand B-410 loudspeakers available in Chicago for $2000.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisabdfj-bozak-audio-lab-concert-grand-b-410-full-range?



The inside of the speakers - photo from another site, not these speakers

[mattburk]

Is Danny still planning on building a new line source speaker kit?