GR sub - review

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Kramer

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GR sub - review
« on: 22 Mar 2005, 08:22 pm »
Any reviews out there?

PR (passive radiator) subs seem to get killed on all the DIY forums I visit.  All I read is "bad sound quality", "floppy", "reverb", "group delay", etc (PR subs in general, not GR's offering specifically). I respect Danny's designs, and if he says it sounds good, then it sounds good. But why all the bad press?

Here is just one example of many:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11467
Now, I respect these guys too. So, whats up?

I want good musical performance AND good HT performance. I understand about trade-offs and such (as with any system), but where do PR-based subs really stand, and more specifically, where does Danny's PR-based sub stand?

Thanks

jackman

GR sub - review
« Reply #1 on: 22 Mar 2005, 09:19 pm »
Did you read that whole article?  Some guys were slamming PR's but Mark Seaton made some very good points.   There are tons of tradeoffs in audio and lots of good sounding subs that are sealed, ported, IB, and PR'd as well as lots of crappy sounding subs that use each of those designs.  Mark's comments seem very reasonable:

Quote
While I have done some custom subs with big ports or ducts, my personal desire for high dynamic linearity have always left me wanting just a little more with all but the largest of boxes and ports. In the end, it all comes down to the parameters and resources you have to work within. In my case, many projects I work on allow me tol have a high resolution measurement system and a full featured EQ to contour things to taste. For most home theaters, my preference in covering the lowest octaves is to use multiple, high displacement sealed boxes or an IB followed by very low tuned passive radiator systems.


The subs I'm using are a PR design and they sound great.  I would be shocked if Danny's soundied anything but great.  

J

ooheadsoo

GR sub - review
« Reply #2 on: 22 Mar 2005, 10:13 pm »
Check madisound's forum as well.  There was a little back and forth with a guy in there on PR's lately.

Danny Richie

Good sub questions
« Reply #3 on: 23 Mar 2005, 01:33 am »
Looks like Mark Seaton was the only one over there that did their homework. At least he was the only one that seamed to get it.

First there are pros and cons (tradeoffs) in everything.

There are always the guys that will claim that a sealed box is the only way to go, blah, blah, blah. Well, our SW-12A sub-woofer works great in a sealed box and has much better low end extension in a sealed box that most. -3db down at 39Hz in only 1.175 cubic feet.

The problem is that -3db down of 39Hz just isn't low enough. For a sealed box design to have the necessary extension it needs to be used with an amp that has a Linkwitz transform circuit. Now how many commonly available plate amps have a transform circuit built in? Then each woofer needs to have its own transform circuit in order to produce the inverse of its roll off. Different woofer, different Q, different roll off, different transform circuit.

I have had dual 18" woofers in here in sealed boxes with custom built transform circuits and big amps on them. Did it hit hard? Sure, but it wasn't the end all be all in sound quality. In fact I really didn't like it. So much gain was required of the amp, then it would drive the amp out of head room and distortion would go up accordingly.

Then when you get a big enough amp to have enough head room to drive the load, and the gain, you run out of power handling on the woofer. The woofer will more quickly reach its mechanical limits and bottoms out. Woofers in a sealed box just will not handle as much power in the low frequency ranges.

And if a sub is being used where it is supposed to be used, covering the first octave (20 to 40Hz). Then things like group delay are really not an issue. The wavelength at 20Hz is about 56 feet long and at 40Hz it's 28 feet long.

IB designs and even a properly set up sealed box design with a transform circuit can be made to sound very good though. You must use more woofers and not over drive them. Long woofer exertions can really compress the air at the cones surface and flex a cone. This is another form of distortion. Using lots of woofers just loafing along solves this. But a lot of people don't have room for a wall of woofers.

The ported box and PR configurations will give you more low end extension and more power handling down low too. Then you can use a standard sub-woofer amp from anywhere.

Now our woofer was specifically designed for three things. Sound quality, low extension down to 20Hz (-3db), and do so in a small box without giving up too much sensitivity.

To get really low extension in a small box with a port requires a large port. With our woofer tuned to produce a -3db down of 22Hz in an optimal ported enclosure means that the port must be 4.8" in diameter and 42" long. Ah, that won't even fit in the box.

Or our PR can be used to get a -3db of 20Hz and do it in only 2.4 cubic feet.

Another advantage of the PR over the port is that there is no port noise. Secondly, the PR can load the woofer in such a way as to increase its impedance in frequencies below 20Hz. In other words the power handling in the sub-sonic range (below 20Hz) goes up by a large factor. In fact the use of the two together (the SW-12A and PR-12A) will keep the woofer from bottoming out.

So, small box, high output levels to 20Hz, good sound quality, and drive it with any common amp.

Here is my favorite budget amp for our woofers: http://www.apexjr.com/Apexsenior.htm

Here is what I really like about this amp:

Variable phase, this is a must! It will output 400 watts (we tested it) into 4 ohms. Sense our subs are 8 ohm loads (big plus) you can run a pair of them off of this one amp. 400 watts on two twelves in a small box.... but it gets even better. Adjust the boost circuit on the amp to give +2db of boost in the 20 to 22Hz range and now our subs are only down 1db at 20Hz. 1db down at 20!!!

Another important factor regarding sound quality is the box design. A good solid box that makes no noise of its own (free of resonation) goes a really long way.

I would still have to say that the best thing about our sub is the sound quality. Some already know. Some of you have yet to find out for yourselves.

Oh yea, the price is really right too.

Kramer

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 29
GR sub - review
« Reply #4 on: 23 Mar 2005, 02:26 pm »
Thanks for the reply guys. I feel better about this sub now.

A few questions though.

Are two subs (in one box, or next to each other) always a good thing (ie, what are the disadvantages)?

If running one amp to two subs, you run the drivers in parallel (pos-to-pos-to-pos, neg-to-neg-to-neg) correct?

What is your favorite "non-budget" amp.

Brian71

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  • Posts: 28
GR sub - review
« Reply #5 on: 23 Mar 2005, 08:48 pm »
I had a pair of Danny's subs.  2 separate boxes, each with a sub and PR, just like the design on his site.
I ran them each off a channel of my amps and ran them off both a parasound Halo A51 and a Crown xls402 ($250 new off ebay)
Both amps did the job just fine. I have no problem recommending a pro amp for sub duties.
I'm now running an IB with 4 15's.  It goes lower (duh) but Danny's subs sound great. I had an M&K 5000 MKII when I built the GR subs and sold it after hearing just one GR sub. They are just great sounding subs.
You could always build the box with 2 holes, but seal the one for the PR at first and try it sealed. Then remove the "seal" and pop the PR in. Then you will personally know the differences.

Kramer

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GR sub - review
« Reply #6 on: 24 Mar 2005, 08:34 pm »
I have a sealed sub. The 250W 10" Titanic III (PE KIT). Its currently located in the forward corner of my room. Its "music" performance is great, it integrates well, and as such,  I really like it.  It just doesnt go low enough for HT.

Now, I had an HSU STF-3 for 2 months (loaner). Its a 350W ported 12" sub (down-firing, if that matters). I had it located directly behind my sofa (center of room, near back wall). For HT, It went plenty low (at least, low enough for me), and musically, it integrated almost as well as my sealed 10". So, I really liked that sub also.

Ok, I want to upgrade from the sealed 10". Getting my own HSU STF-3 is something I would be happy with (sans the $550 price tag), but I do understand the value and performance that can be achieved with DIY (my mains are DIY).

I want good music and HT integration. Im not really looking to go too low (I was happy with 25Hz from the HSU), nor too high (I cut off at 60Hz and 80Hz).  I am not really looking to run an external amp. I do have the ability to run stereo subs (I have the Outlaw ICBM). Location of the sub (or subs) will be behind my sofa (initially). I do have testing software (trueRTA), a mike (EM8000), and mixer (UB802). My room is medium size (maybe 15 x 15 x 8 ) and not bright (lots of carpet and fabrics).

What do you guys think?

NealH

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GR sub - review
« Reply #7 on: 24 Mar 2005, 10:13 pm »
I can not find information on the GR subs on the website.  Can someone point me to it.  I am interested in knowing the distortion performance of this sub.  I wonder if distortion is less than 3% at 25Hz and just 100db?

Danny Richie

GR sub - review
« Reply #8 on: 25 Mar 2005, 01:10 am »
Quote
What do you guys think?


Best bang for the buck by far is DIY. Please consider our woofer/PR combo. I really is tough to beet. Plate amps are available from a number of sources. My favorite is the Apex Sr. from www.apexjr.com.

As for integration: The lower you can cross it the better the integration is going to be. Playing it up to 80Hz or more gets real directional.

No bigger than your room is, a single 12" sub will be plenty.

Quote
I can not find information on the GR subs on the website. Can someone point me to it.


There is a link to it on the scrolling tool bar at the top of the page under "Drivers".

http://www.gr-research.com/sub.htm

Kramer

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 29
GR sub - review
« Reply #9 on: 25 Mar 2005, 02:18 pm »
Quote
I really is tough to beet

 :lol:

Thanks Danny. Ill build your design this April.


Quote
There is a link to it on the scrolling tool bar at the top of the page under "Drivers".

No scrolling bar on my browser. In fact, half the "stuff" on your site doesnt work on my Firefox/Mozilla (no, Im not turning off my security controls or switching to the microsoft browser :nono: ). I guess Ill be calling in my order.

Danny Richie

GR sub - review
« Reply #10 on: 25 Mar 2005, 04:27 pm »
Quote
No scrolling bar on my browser. In fact, half the "stuff" on your site doesnt work on my Firefox/Mozilla (no, Im not turning off my security controls or switching to the microsoft browser


You have to have the java script function active to get the scrolling tool bar.

Hang in there I have someone working on a new solution (no java), new look, new front page, etc.

samplesj

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Re: Good sub questions
« Reply #11 on: 25 Mar 2005, 10:42 pm »
Quote from: Danny
Here is my favorite budget amp for our woofers: http://www.apexjr.com/Apexsenior.htm

Here is what I really like about this amp:

Variable phase, this is a must! It will output 400 watts (we tested it) into 4 ohms. Sense our subs are 8 ohm loads (big plus) you can run a pair of them off of this one amp. 400 watts on two twelves in a small box.... but it gets even better. Adjust the boost circuit on the amp to give +2db of boost in the 20 to 22Hz range and now our subs are only down 1db at 20Hz. 1db down at 20!!!

Another important factor regarding sound quality is the box design. A good solid box that makes no noise of its own (free of resonation) goes a really long way.

I would still have to say that the best thing about our sub is the sound quality. Some already know. Some of you have yet to find out for yourselves.

Oh yea, the price is really right too.


I got my ApexJr Senior Amp today.  I'm hoping to get it all put together this weekend, but I may not finish up.  I had picked up a couple of the 250 watt plate amps at Parts Express to use originally, but after looking at the specs for the one Danny is recommending I'll be sending 1 back.  I'll keep one for a later sub I'm going to build ;).

On a lark I put the two plates side by side on the breakfast table.  I bet they come from the same OEM.  All of the caps are the same brand, the wiring is, they have a similar layout, and even more interesting is that the preamp boards have the same string of numbers

Ver 3.0
02670092
SUB150P

To me for the extra $30 its a no brainer to get the Senior.  Its officially rated at 380 watts into 4 ohm vs 272 watts into 4 ohm.  It has 4 6800uf 100v caps vs the 2 6800uf 80v caps in the Parts Express amp.  It also is fused at 6.3amp (250v) vs 4amp (250v).  Of course its also much heavier because of the bigger transformer.

Now here is my question.  The Apex Junior page is a little slim on details about the bass boost resistor values compared to the chart that Parts Express provides.  Because its almost certainly the same preamp board is it safe to use the Parts Express table?  The biggest difference is that the Parts Express  table references two resistors R26 and R27, but the default value of the R27 may be the right values for the boost Apex Junior describes.

Basically ApexJr suggests a 47k for R26 and leaving R27 alone for a +2dB at 21-22hz and a low filter at 18hz.  The Parts Express table suggests a 47k for R26 and changing R27 to 220k for a +2dB at 20-24hz and a low filter at 16hz.  I've not cracked open the board yet on the Senior to see what its default R27 is.

Has anyone else looked at these amps close enough to know for sure if they are the same for boost modification?

On a side note, how do you get the preamp board off without tearing the foam all to pieces?

Jeremy

samplesj

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GR sub - review
« Reply #12 on: 25 Mar 2005, 11:22 pm »
Ok, I managed to get the Apex preamp board off without any real damage to the foam.   I used the PE one as a test and really mangled it.  However I was able to get the glue off just fine on my second one.

Ok, based on the defaults on the board the ApexJr is more likely the 300-792 instead of the 300-796.  The two PE amps are the same just the default boost on 1 is +3dB at 30hz vs flat on the other.  If the ApexJr preamp board is the same then it has a default of +3dB at 30hz.  The suggestion of changing R26 to 47k but leaving R27 alone according to the PE charts would yield +1dB at 25-30hz and a low filter of 17hz.

I've put a couple of pictures on the web so you all can see the same things I've seeing.  I hope the silkscreened letters are readable.  I think you can see them on both sides of the preamp.

http://www.phoenixlogic.com/images/aveq/DSC_0048.JPG' target='_blank''>Plates side by side

http://www.phoenixlogic.com/images/aveq/DSC_0049.JPG' target='_blank''>Inside of sub preamp

http://www.phoenixlogic.com/images/aveq/DSC_0050.JPG' target='_blank''>Backside of sub preamp

Jeremy

samplesj

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Oh my ...
« Reply #13 on: 15 Apr 2005, 04:43 am »
Life intruded a bit and I didn't get a cabinet finished until this weekend.  Even now its a temporary cabinet that I'll have to replace because my table saw guide is cockeyed.  I was tired of waiting so I went with what I had.  I made the "mistake" of listing my dual UFW-10s on Audiogon after I received the drivers.  I though it'd take a while for them to sell, but they sold overnight so I've been without a sub for too long.

I am VERY pleased with this sub.  When I ran the calibration tones it was a much deeper sound (rumbly/growly).   Critical listening is done with a different system so I've not really checked out musical performance.  For HT use its a clear winner.  It definately goes lower.  There are a lot of effects that I just wasn't hearing before.  I was finally able to hear what people talk about at the start of LOTR FOTR EE with the Ring fall.  Even the effects I could hear before are better now.  The elephants in LOTR ROTK EE were really impressive.  The Nemo Darla tapping scene sounded real and the minefield rattled everything.  My wife said the dishes in the kitchen (on the other side of the house) were rattling when we watched the Incredibles tonight.  Nothing I've heard so far seems artificial.  The boat motor startup in Finding Nemo was as realistic as I've heard so far.  Its not a one note wonder.  And in my treated room with the HK eq its not boomy.

This was an upgrade that put money back in my pocket.  Even counting the nice new router and circle jigs I bought I have money left from the sale of the 2 10" subs.  It may not be as pretty (especially now), but it clearly out performs them.   If you've been waiting to pick up these drivers don't.  These things really perform and Danny's amazing pricing is icing on the cake.

BTW: I did use the PE chart for bass boost with the Apex Sr amp.  Nothing has exploded yet.  Maybe this weekend I'll have time to run a sweep with ETF.  Right now I'm using an HK635 so I just let it take care of the setup/eq (including bass).  Because of it I've not really measured anything yet.  I'll measure with both HK eq on and off.

sm4r2d2

GR sub - review
« Reply #14 on: 18 Apr 2005, 06:55 pm »
OK here I go. I"m asking out of respect and not knowledge,so count to 10.
I (like many) am using monitors. Five in my setup. The sound didn't have any body so I added a HSU 3. Fairly good for HT and shaking stuff from back corner, but not what I wanted. So I added 2 Infinity csw10, ea. split off from a front speaker line (stereo). Helped but in nearfield could tell the sound was coming from the floor. This leads to my Questions and seeing as you sell monitors and subs. etc.
  A true subwoofer (40Hz & down) may not be directional but we need a unit that will cover up to say 80?Hz. This area is IMHO directional and maybe time sensitive? So this box may need to be inline with the monitors. I also have read that some people are putting skirts or beards or something in front of their stands(possible business opportunity). Also,I don't know if subwoofers are on the floor because of weight or reinforcement or echos or?.
  Like someone else on the thread mentioned, wouldn't two speakers in the cabinet (no crossover) be easier to drive, move more air (not volume) , be more time aligned with the monitor, and make a great speaker stand?
  Sorry about the legnth of my post, but I felt you were the right person to ask. Thanks for you patience ---Richard DC---

Danny Richie

subs
« Reply #15 on: 19 Apr 2005, 12:11 am »
Quote
This area is IMHO directional and maybe time sensitive?


You are correct.

Quote
So this box may need to be inline with the monitors.


The higher they play, the closer they need to be to the main speakers, and the greater the need for a variable phase control.

Quote
I also have read that some people are putting skirts or beards or something in front of their stands(possible business opportunity).


You lost me there.

Quote
Like someone else on the thread mentioned, wouldn't two speakers in the cabinet (no crossover) be easier to drive, move more air (not volume) , be more time aligned with the monitor, and make a great speaker stand?


I am not sure I follow all of that either, but if the subs have to play up into that range then using them as speakers stands does help with integrating them with the main speakers. But the best place in the room for your speakers is not necessarily the best in the room for a sub.

sm4r2d2

GR sub - review
« Reply #16 on: 19 Apr 2005, 01:02 am »
Sorry for rambling on. I guess my questions are:
 1. A subwoofer is generally for 40HZ and down, and non directional. I (and probably others) use the subwoofer to cover the 40Hz-80Hz range where my monitors don't have enough "body" for bass drum, string bass, etc. This area is directional and needs to align with the main speakers.
 2.  With your design experience, I was wondering if a single cabinet (2 for stereo) could function as a subwoofer and up to approx. 80Hz. without a crossover.
 3. Can the cabinet be used as a speaker stand to avoid additional reflections.
 4. Can 2 speakers be used (w/ your PR's) to get the sound up off the floor, move more air, and reduce the amps load.(powered cabinets)
 5. Finally, can it be done cheap enough to compete with upgrading to floorstanders for those who have that option?
   Thanks for your time and knowledge.

Danny Richie

GR sub - review
« Reply #17 on: 19 Apr 2005, 02:05 am »
Quote
1. A subwoofer is generally for 40HZ and down, and non directional. I (and probably others) use the subwoofer to cover the 40Hz-80Hz range where my monitors don't have enough "body" for bass drum, string bass, etc. This area is directional and needs to align with the main speakers.


Sounds like your main speakers don't play down very low. At least not real effectively. This is typical though.

Quote
2. With your design experience, I was wondering if a single cabinet (2 for stereo) could function as a subwoofer and up to approx. 80Hz. without a crossover.


Most woofers will play up to that level without a problem but you wouldn't want to run it (or any of them for that matter) with no crossover. The only way you can get away with using no crossover at all is loading the woofer into a band-pass enclosure.

Quote
3. Can the cabinet be used as a speaker stand to avoid additional reflections.


A sub-woofer design can be used as a stand but it does not solve surface reflection issues. Typically a speaker stand will allow less surface reflections. However the area at which one would see additional gain from surface reflections of a lower enclosure will be limited primarily to lower frequency ranges.

Quote
4. Can 2 speakers be used (w/ your PR's) to get the sound up off the floor, move more air, and reduce the amps load.(powered cabinets)


Two of our SW-12A woofers and PR's can be used or mounted in one common enclosure. In fact I just cut the MDF for a dual sub-woofer design earlier today. Since our woofers are 8 ohms each, they can both easily be run off of one amp.

However doing this will have nothing to do with getting the sound up off the floor. Regardless of positioning the sub bass should never sound like it is coming off the floor. I have not experienced this, but then again I would never play a sub up that high either.

This dual woofer combo does increase SPL capability, lower distortion, and move a lot more air. But any time you decrease the impedance you increase the current demand of the amp. The amp will output more power and run a little hotter too.

Quote
5. Finally, can it be done cheap enough to compete with upgrading to floor standers for those who have that option?


What is cheap to some is not cheap to others. I guess I would have to say that a SW-12A and PR-12A combo is not expensive at only $144. and that a good plate amp can be had for less than or around the $150. range. MDF at only $18. a sheet is not much of an expense either. All sounds pretty cheap to me.

sm4r2d2

GR sub - review
« Reply #18 on: 19 Apr 2005, 03:34 am »
Thanks for your input. I guess I think faster than I can type. When I said no crossover I am thinking of a verticle cabinet with 2 speakers & 2 PR's covering the subwoofer to 80 or 90Hz. area.
  I was also thinking of reflections in relation to some old McIntosh type speakers that had a seperate cabinet for the lower range and a tower with mids & tweeters. My thought being that you would be creating a tower type of speaker w/out having to sell off your monitors. The cabinets would have their own plate amp.
 I would like to know more about todays project. Thanks again. Oh, the front skirting was in a VMPS thread.

sm4r2d2

GR sub - review
« Reply #19 on: 19 Apr 2005, 04:47 am »