[stgrim]

Hi All, could anyone who used to own a m2tech Young DAC (any of the revisions) share what they upgraded to next? I thank you in advance for reading this long thread, I have elected to fully explain what music I like and what DACs I have tried so you can fully understand my situation. I am almost at my wit's end.

My budget is $5,000, although I prefer to spend as little as possible and would strongly prefer to buy used.
In my early 30s and I still hear into 16khz~ based on online listening tests.
I currently use a m2tech Young DAC MK. II paired with a HDPlex 200w Linear Power Supply.
The combined pair only costs around $2000 retail price and I paid much less buying used.
The DAC+LPSU represents less than 5% of my entire system cost which leads me to think it is the prime candidate to upgrade. However, it has been really tiring buying DACs only not to like them and having to list and sell them again. If I cannot find a DAC I like within the next 2 iterations, I will probably spend ~$4k upgrading by Aesthetix Tube Pre-amp from the Signature to the Eclipse edition.
I enjoy this combination because it gives me a scary good holographic 3D soundstage with that "wall of sound" perception and it elicits a strong emotional connection from me on tracks featuring female vocals. Yet, the Young DAC does not sacrifice much in other areas despite this mid-range bloom. It is still competent with complex modern electronic dance/house music (Lane 8, Elderbrook etc.) and older classic pop/rock tracks (Eagles Live and Fleetwood Mac Rumours) in terms of separation and microdynamics within the extreme treble and low bass. I would say the weakness of this DAC is that the "width" of the soundstage is not as wide as I like and "edginess" in the final top registers of treble.

My signal chain is as follows: Roon Core running on Intel NUC -> m2tech Young DAC MK. II -> Aesthetix Calypso Signature Edition Tube Pre-amp -> Pass Labs x150.8 -> Focal Scala Evo Utopia. The Intel NUC is optically isolated from the rest of my ethernet network using TP-link Ethernet to Optical converters. The Intel NUC and m2tech Young DAC and TP-Link converters are powered by the HDPlex 200w Linear PSU hence avoiding the use of switching power supplies in the signal chain. My room is a studio apartment 17' x 15'10" with an open corridoor. The front two corners have 2x 11" diameter 3' tall ASC Tube Traps stacked atop each other and the back corners have homemade bass traps. The area immediately behind the speakers and the first reflection points are treated with homemade 2" absorbers. I am unable to treat the ceiling as that would involve drilling into concrete which the building association does not approve of.

I primarily audition new system components with the song "Swallow your Pride by Rhys" to evaluate the strength of female vocals and evaluate the system's ability to deal with the separation of instruments as additional backing tracks are added through out the song. I learnt of this song as it was consistently played by the sales rep at the Axpona 2019 Focal Speakers showroom to demo the Focal Sopra 2s. I also use "Heart Attack by Bronson" to evaluate bass slam, dynamics and microdynamics within the bass. Most of the music I enjoy is decidedly "newer"; 1996 to present day. I do not play vinyl records.

I generally enjoy DACs with an implementation of the Burr Brown PCM1795 DAC chip. I recognize that the implementation of the same DAC chip can vary widely across manufacturers but still feel it is a good frame of reference as a filter for the shortlist of potential DAC upgrades.
The first DAC I owned 7 years ago was the TEAC UD-301 which uses 2xPCM1795 chips, it has a wonderfully liquid, slightly warm, house sound that is hard to fault but also would not win any awards in detail retrieval or separation. I used this DAC for 2 years and its house sound has greatly affected my preferences.
I also auditioned the Musical Fidelity V 90 DAC (single PCM1795) in my system and was shocked how good it sounded for a retail price of $349.
I eventually landed on the m2tech young DAC as it also used a single PCM1795 and represented an overall improvment over the TEAC UD-301 while still retaining the "house sound", especially when its default switching supply was replaced with a linear PSU.
I have tried several DACs costing several times more but I have not found one that beats the Young DAC in all areas convincingly.

Here is a log of what I have tried in a head-to-head comparision to the Young DAC. I always use the USB input connected directly to the Intel NUC for all DACs. All comparisions were done level matched through Room EQ Wizard using the minidsp U-MIK1 calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs.

Luxman D-03X CD Player with DAC (Retail $3,500) versus Young DAC MK. II
I really wanted to like the Luxman as the Japanese fit and finish were superb, representing the nicest casework of any audio componenent I had ever handled.
Alas, the mid-highs of female vocals was slightly etched and had a metallic quality to them which made it difficult for me to connect emotionally with the songs.

Lampizator Amber 3 (Retail $2,750) versus Young DAC MK. II
A very punchy and exciting sound, which was beguiling for the first 15mins but felt overall a little too much for long listening sessions. Reminded me of an overeager puppy.

Aesthetix Pandora DAC Signature Edition (Retail $9,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
The entire Aesthetix range is famed for their tube output stage which provides an organic presentation with a certain "ease" and excellent separation. I heard all of these things and the separation of individual instruments for older classic rock tracks, which were not always recorded well, was especially good. However, I felt the overall presentation was too "polite" and I could not connect with any of the music, regardless of the genre. I turned the stereo off after 30mins out of boredom.

Aesthetix Romulus CD Player with DAC (Retail $12,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
Even more separation and detail than the Pandora Signature Edition above but equally as boring. I also shut the stereo off after 30mins in this case.

Chord Qutest DAC (Retail $1,695) versus Young DAC MK. II
Very "British-Fi" sound which is great for Pink Floyd and Queen but sounds anemic for every other genre. No bass weight or slam.

Audio-gd Master 11 Singularity (Retail $2,500) versus Young DAC MK. II
This was my first foray into non-oversampling R-2R DACs as the Audio-gd used 4x of the famed Burr Brown PCM1704 chips. The DAC ticked all the right boxes and was technically very competent but was overall too neutral for my tastes. It felt like a NFL or MLB player with the highest scoring stats but could never win a championship.

PSAudio DirectStream DAC (Retail $6,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
I felt the overall presentation was too "soft"; like the singers were wearing masks and the instrument players were wearing gloves, restricting their ability to deliver the full brunt of the emotional response.

Topping D90 (Retail $600) versus Young DAC MK. II
I really wanted to buy into "Objective-Fi" and believe that the DAC with the highest SNR would solve all my problems.
This DAC felt like a cool drink of water. Water is great for health and all but is really not the drink of choice for a Friday evening after a long week of work (which is typically when I listen to my stereo). Very neutral sounding but presented a much narrower soundstage than the Young DAC. It felt like the musicians moved from a concert venue to a small studio recording room which was much too little cramped for everyone.

Denafrips ARES II (Retail $750) versus Young DAC MK. II
The ARES II is a competent DAC with a separation and soundstage that is as good, if not better than the Young DAC. I can see why the Denafrips house sound has such a large following. Overall, it prioritized detail retrieval above all else which made for a fatiguing presentation to me and was just not my cup of tea.

Once again, thank you for reading this long thread. I welcome all and any recommendations.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I would consider an Aqua DAC like the La Voce S3.  It has a very analog sound.  I like the PSA Direct Stream.  You can change the sound with the multiple versions of its software.  Another that I would add to that list is the T+A DAC8 if you use HQ player and have a computer that can handle the upsampling to 8x DSD.  With HQP at 8x DSD this dac is one of the best that I have heard.

If going the used route, consider a Bricasti.  This DAC blew me away in the Bricasti-Tidal speaker room at Axpona 3 or 4 years ago.  Just fabulous.

Having owned and home auditioned multiple DAC's in $2K to $6K range, I  can tell you that they are all very system dependent and can be USB cable dependent.  We did a usb cable shootout with 4 cables and the results were eye opening in my system.  In fact they all sounded noticeably different and they sounded different in different systems.  My DAC is a  Luxman DA-06, amp Pass X250, BAT VK51se tube preamp, Magnepan 1.6 speakers with dual subs.

[Rusty Jefferson]

My first recommendation would be to use a dedicated bridge rather than using your NUC to run Roon Core and also act as the bridge. Separate the two processes. You'll get better results and I think others will agree.

Dacs with more resolution but no glare in that range would include Aqua Acoustics La Scala and Berkeley Reference.

[rooze]

Denafrips Terminator coupled with the Denafrips Gaia is a great sounding DAC/DDC.

[routlaw]

Having owned and home auditioned multiple DAC's in $2K to $6K range, I  can tell you that they are all very system dependent and can be USB cable dependent.  We did a usb cable shootout with 4 cables and the results were eye opening in my system.  In fact they all sounded noticeably different and they sounded different in different systems.

Don't want to derail the OP's question but I find this comment of great interest regarding USB cables. Would you mind extrapolating on your findings either here or in a separate post? Thanks.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Here is a deal on a Bricasti M1, the best DAC that I have heard.  If I was not getting ready to buy some new speakers, I would buy the Bricasti.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=178047.msg1873357#new

Routlaw, I agree, I don't want to highjack this thread but to answer your question we compared the $600 Wireworld Platinum, a $600 Lightspeed, a $150 Wireworld Starlight Red and a $60 Pangea.

In my system the WW Platinum sounded the best-musical, smooth but detailed with just a hint of warmth and a fabulous midrange, the Lightspeed was the most detailed, resolving and transparent but extremely ear piercing bright.  The Starlight Red was warm, muted and muddy.  The Pangea was bright, but was extremely thin sounding.

Interestingly, the person that owns the Platinum and Lightspeed prefers the LS in his system.  He uses a Hugo Chord and a T+A DAC8 DAC.  The LS does not sound bright in his system.  I have heard it.

Another interesting fact is that we introduced a Regen and tested the USB cables again.  The Regen had a noticeable effect.  It did not change the sound from the Platinum much but it did remove some of the brightness of the LS cable but it was still not listenable.  It markedly improved the sound of the Starlight Red to the point it sounded close to the Platinum.  It improved the sound of the Pangea but it was still bright, thin and anemic sounding.

We also tried an AQ Jitterbug which did increase detail a bit but it made the sound of all cables a little brighter sounding.

I own the Starlight Red and use to use it with the Regen but I have since bought an AQ Carbon that sounds great without the Regen.

My music source is a custom computer that I built with a low ripple power supply, high end MOBO and SSD and SSD M.2 drives.  It sounds much better than the laptop I was using.

As always, YMMV with your system.

[GregC]

I like neutral and resolving sound.  I had a Comet DAC (with upgraded PSU) and thought it was an outstanding DAC, especially at its price point.  The sound was resolving and musical, yet forgiving of less than stellar recordings. 

From there I got a Wyred 4 Sound 10th Anniversary DAC and it really meshes well with my system.   I have an Ambrosia Second Generation preamp, Digital Amp Company Golden Cherry Amps (with linear power supplies, a rare option), and Daedalus Athena speakers.  My wiring loom is all Triode Wire Labs.  My digital source is streaming from an Ultrarendu (with a linear power supply). 

I feel like my system has very good synergy and the sound quality is stunning, with plenty of detail but not at the expense of sounding etched or causing listener fatigue.

Good luck, I hope you find something that blends well with your system.

[routlaw]

Given the amount of other gear, in this case DAC's, you've tried its highly unlikely any recommendation anyone might offer will be anything but a crap shoot at best. Not meant as a disparaging remark its just that you've gone through a great deal of comparisons more than most of us might do in a lifetime with still no winners. You seem very particular about what you are looking for too, not a bad thing, but again anyone recommending another DAC is just a shot in the dark. If nothing else at least you have discovered price does not even enter into the equation of how well a component will perform, let alone and more importantly in "your system" based upon "your own predilections" of what sounds good or bad. Reading through your initial post I couldn't help but think you really like your existing DAC if for no other reason, for the most part, its the sound you're used to and comfortable with and that's ok.

Understand too there are many audiophiles including professional reviewers who seem to think differences in DAC's have become much more minimal at best and most of the differences have less to do with the DAC chip itself rather than the implementation of the component, such as power supplies, output stage, USB implementation, cables and so on, the list is endless. Personally I don't care for the sound of Burr Brown DAC chips, or at least don't think I do, but you do which is fine but illustrates how different people perceive different things in the audio world. And there are people who think, if it measures perfect then it sounds perfect but you've discovered this isn't the case necessarily.

Finally I use a Holo Spring DAC, one not mentioned thus far, but doubt it would be your cup of tea based upon your initial post. It is an R2R Ladder DAC, sounds very organic and the best sounding I've owned thus far. It has a litany of different inputs including but not limited to I2S which I've tried my best to like but can't stand to listen to it this way, based upon the equipment owned at the time of implementing. I much prefer either AES/EBU or USB inputs. This brings me to cables again. They make a difference and will alter the sound and in some case dramatically and do so apparently differently from one DAC to another as  I.Greyhound Fan pointed out. Cutting to the chase I think all of this digital audio is a hateful mess and it didn't have to be but this is where we are.

[routlaw]

Referencing I.Greyhound Fan's comments regarding USB cables and such. He makes some interesting conclusions and something that really bugs me about USB as an audio interface in general, that being all of the USB de-crapifiers on the market. How on earth did we get here? I've owned some of them too, but not currently. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts if all USB cables were made to perfect spec, that being 90 ohm impedance none of these de-crapifiers would be needed.

Earlier in the year I came across another audio forum regarding this issue, where one engineer who owned the proper equipment to test the impedance of digital cables found these values to be all over the place including extremely expensive audiophile grade USB cables. You cannot measure digital impedance with standard LCR measuring gear, it takes very specialized equipment to properly measure this impedance. In his comments he found USB cables measuring in the low 70's to well above 100 ohms impedance if memory serves me correct. Is it any wonder so many digital cables sound differently.

Thanks for reading.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I reviewed the Comet Exogal for the company when it came out.  It is a great sounding DAC with a very holographic 3D sound.  It was very transparent and had a huge sound stage. It is detailed and resolving with a neutral tone.  It may be worth you looking in to.

I also owned a Marantz NA11s DAC and it had the best tone that I have heard from a DAC bar none but it was too forward in my system.  It has a hint of warmth, a fabulous deep  rich midrange and powerful bass.  If not for it being forward I would still own it.

I would still consider that used Bricasti.  I could find no faults with it.  However, I heard it with the $28K a pr Bricasti monoblocks and $35K/pr Tidal speakers.  Everyone that walked into that room were just amazed at the sound and how natural it sounded.  Piano notes were just floating in the air.

Other DAC's that I have owned or auditioned are the Cary 200T, Bryston which is a great sounding neutral DAC, Wired 4 sound DSDse with the Femto clock upgrade (too grainy and bright), Hugo Chord, PSA Direct  Stream, Schiit Yggy which I enjoyed very much.  It gave my Luxman a run for the money.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I would also consider the new AVAHiFi DAC.  The prior model had my Luxman beat in clarity.  I was supposed to go over to Frank Van Alstine's to listen to the new DAC but I was recently involved in a serious bicycle accident and was hospitalized.  Fractured ribs, separated shoulder for which I just had surgery for.  Also fractured my knee and tore the PCL which needs surgery once the shoulder is healed.

AVAHiFi has a 30 day money back trial period.

[GregC]

I reviewed the Comet Exogal for the company when it came out.  It is a great sounding DAC with a very holographic 3D sound.  It was very transparent and had a huge sound stage. It is detailed and resolving with a neutral tone.  It may be worth you looking in to.

Wired 4 sound DSDse with the Femto clock upgrade (too grainy and bright)

Sorry to hear about your bicycle accident, Godspeed on your recovery.

That is interesting you were able to be one of the first reviewers for the Exogal Comet.  I was an early adopter and bought on the reputation of the Wadia guys who founded the company.  I have nothing but good things to say about the Comet DAC, and Jeff Haagenstad, the CEO of Exogal.  The Comet straddles the line between being resolving yet forgiving of source material.

I was worried about the reputation how ESS DAC chips may sound too bright and stark, especially since my system is solid state.  I took the leap of faith and got the Wyred 4 Sound 10th Anniversary DAC.  It has a different board than the DSDse so the traces are optimized for better sound.  It is a phenomenal sounding DAC.  You should listen to one some time and see what you think.  The 10th Anniversary brought my system up to the next level.

I agree that USB cables can make a difference.  Pete of Triode Wire Labs measures impedance in his digital cables carefully and says 0.75m length increments sound best.  Maybe cable length is part of reason for Pete's impedance accuracy.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Greg,

I would have bought the comet but I prefer a very slightly warmer colored sound and a meaty midrange.  My Luxman fits the bill.  It also gives me a huge sound stage but it is not as holographic as the comet.  The comet gave me the impression that I had surround sound.  It was uncanny.

I have heard that .75m increments of usb cables is best.  If you look at AQ cables and some other companies, they sell their cables at .75m, 1.5m and 3m increments.

Thanks by the way.  It is a long slow recovery and I am off work for 12 weeks.  I am bored to death.  My main audio system is torn down.  We were supposed to replace our wood floors with new wood floors and tile the week that I was injured.  That was put on hold.
I still have my son's system in my basement that I can listen to though.

[GregC]

I have had my share of injuries and physical therapy, that is no fun.   

If you can sneak down to the basement for some listening sessions that helps with the healing process.

The 10th Anniversary is neutral without emphasis on any particular range, so it works for my personal tastes.

[Rusty Jefferson]

Larry, I'm very sorry to hear about your crash and I hope you come through it without any permanent  injuries. Was this an unfortunate meeting with a motor vehicle, or a bad line on a descent?

I agree with your assessment of the importance of comparing digital cables in an individual system. They are the most important cables in a system (imo) and can have a tremendous effect on the presentation.

I should have added in my earlier post about needing a dedicated bridge to interface with the dac, that storing the music on a NAS rather than locally (except with the most expensive bridges) is a better sounding path. Just use the NUC to run Roon Core.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Larry, I'm very sorry to hear about your crash and I hope you come through it without any permanent  injuries. Was this an unfortunate meeting with a motor vehicle, or a bad line on a descent?

Thanks,

I was inattentive.  I  was riding on a path by a Marina looking off to the side admiring a boat.  I was traveling about 15 mph and hit a concrete filled steel post (used to keep cars from turning onto the bike path) just below my knee.  It spun me around and threw me about 12 feet off the bike onto the pavement.  Luckily, my son was with me.  I laid on the ground for 20 minutes before he could pick me up and drive me to the hospital.  Probably should have called an ambulance but I did not hit my head and my neck, back and abdomen were ok.

Greg,

I bet that W4S DAC sounds great.  They make some good stuff.  The DSDse with the Femto clock was a very good DAC when it came out.  But DAC's keep getting better and better.  There are so many great ones out there it is hard to pick one.  I have a friend that has the PSA direct stream and he loves the different software packages that changes the sound.  I had a chance to buy one and bought the Luxman based on reviews.  I could have been happy with the Comet, Direct Stream or Yggy.  I really like the sound of Aqua DAC's and would love to find a used La Voce S3.  Besides sounding great, they are modular and can be easily upgraded.

[firedog]

I think the Bricasti is a good suggestion. I would also look at the M3.

Another one to audition would be the Playback Designs Merlot.
 
It was my favorite under 10K when I auditioned DACs a few years ago.
Above your price range, but you occasionally see  these on the used market from people upgrading.

[GregC]

Hi Larry,

I hope you fully recover soon.  It sounds like your accident was bad.  Glad to hear you are on the mend.

My last bad accident was in a dog park in 2007 where I was knocked off my feet by two dogs.  I crushed the radial head in my right elbow, dislocated the elbow, tore all my ligaments, and my lower arm was turned 180 degrees.  Unfortunately I required an ambulance ride to the hospital to get my elbow put back into the socket.

Afterwards I had surgery where a titanium radial head was installed, and the doctors reconnected the torn ligaments the best they could.  I can only bend my arm to within 15 degrees of straight.  Since the doctors predicted 30 degree range of motion, I exceeded their expectations and I cannot complain.

Thanks for the insight on some DACs and cables you have tried.  There are so many choices out there. it really behooves us to listen to and find what sounds the best in our system (based on personal preferences and system component matching).

[genjamon]

Holo Audio May DAC is an R2R design that's getting pretty much universal praise by owners, and the levels 1 and 2 are within the budget. 

[stgrim]

Hey everyone thank you so much for all the replies. I will read each response in detail and add the DACs you mentioned on my next round of shortlist.