[xlarge-nz]

Do many here have computer based systems?

I have only just realised that computers can actually produce a high quality sound, provided you have the right equipment and use the right applications.  Although, it won't replace your reference system, the file formats seem to be getting better by the day.

I started out using iTunes, primarily because I had an iPod.  But upon stumbling across a plug-in for Winamp, I made the transition.

Now I had the dilemma of ripping CDs, as I again was using iTunes.  Enter DB PowerAmp.  

I have also started trying different file formats and have re-ripped a few albums using Musepack.  I have to say, Musepack seems to kick mp3's butt.  OK, I have ripped @ 'BrainDead' Musepack quality, compared with 192kbps mp3s.  But the filesize of the resulting Musepack files aren't that much bigger than the mp3s, maybe 10%.  One downfall with Musepack is that it isn't compatible with iPod, alhtough my iPod listening time has diminished quite a bit (having crap headphones tends to do that ).

I guess what I'm asking is, what are you all using a) to rip CDs, b) file format and c) play media files?

[shelt59]

Well, this won't be a short answer!

First of all,  I started with a PC server feeding mp3's to my www.slimdevices.com Squeezebox.  That worked great for the 15,000 tracks I put on my server.

But...it wasn't audiophile quality by any streatch due to the source material.  I then decided to re-rip my better quality stuff in my library into a lossless format, since the Squeezebox accepts WAV files directly, and the Slim Server software converts lossless formats (FLAC, Apple Lossless, SHN, etc) into WAV/PCM and feeds them to the Squeezebox unit.  A new version, Squeezebox2, accepts FLAC files directly without conversion.  The great thing is that SlimServer can be configured to convert almost any stored format to any other on the fly.  The Squeezebox has optical and coax outputs, in addition to RCA analog.  I feed the digital coax to a modified ART DI/o DAC and then to my tube amp.  This sounds fantastic!!!  At least as good as any CD configuration I've had attached, actually better,  and all of my music is at my fingertips.

The key in getting a clean library is to use a "secure" ripping program like "Exact Audio Copy" (aka EAC).  It is free, and there are many web guides (e.g. - http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/EAC/index.html ) on how to set it up for ripping to different formats (and how to get good clean tag information).  For reference, if an average CD is ~600MB, a lossless compressed format (FLAC or Apple for example) will yield an album around 300-320MB, and a hi quality mp3 will be about 100-125MB, so you'll need some hard drive space! But....it only costs about $0.20 these days to store a perfect CD image of an album as a FLAC on a hard drive!

Now, moving to a pure PC based system, there are a few more complications.  First you'll want a good system to accurately retrieve the song files from your hard drive and convert them to analog.  First, throw out your cheap PC sound card, and get a high quality D-A conversion device.  I use a USB M-Audio "Audiophile" (~$150 online) to convert to analog, which then feeds a tripath-based amp in my office.  Be careful to avoid sound devices that only natively operate at 48khz (like many Creative devices) or you'll get an extra D-D conversion.  You want a device that natively handles 44.1khz.  And one that supports ASIO (more on that below). This M-Audio system worked great out of the box, except for one problem....

Windows-based systems have a sound process called the "k-mixer".  The k-mixer, in short, modifies the pure data in your file (D-D conversions) before sending it out to your external sound device.  Some people really don't like the k-mixer effect on sound; others seem fine with it.  Fortunately, there is a way around it.  Many higher quality external DACs (like the one I mentioned) are "ASIO capable".  ASIO is essentially a process which bypasses the K-Mixer, and originated with the recording industry looking for very low latency recording processes.  If your hardware AND your player software support it, ASIO gives you that really clean ouput.  Squeezebox, by comparison, bypasses all of these issues directly since it uses a completely different process...

As for ASIO-ready players, unfortunately iTunes isn't one yet.  iTunes uses Quicktime to play back, and Quicktime isn't ASIO ready.  But my family and I love iTunes, it's autoplaylists, etc, so I use it with mp3s and ALAC's (Apple Lossless Files).  Fortunately, Winamp has an ASIO plugin, as does Foobar2000.  Both of these players work fine for me in ASIO mode.

As for player lossless format support, it looks something like this:

Squeezebox & Slimserver - almost everything!
iTunes - mp3, wav, AIFF, and Aple Lossless (ALAC). Waiting for FLAC support!
Winamp (ASIO ready) - mp3, wav, ogg, FLAC, ALAC -- via extra plugins
Foobar2000 (ASIO ready) - mp3, ogg, wav, FLAC, but not ALAC yet!
MediaMonkey- Another decent player that supports mp3's and FLAC's.  Seems to be working toward more iTunes-like functionality

BTW, foobar is a great player, but looks like a Linux geek wrote it for other Linux geeks.  However, with a day or two of research, it can become a very beautiful and flexible player.  They need to release several pre-configured distributions with all the fancy stuff set up!

Anyway, that's enough for one post -- hope this helps.  This stuff is not as overwhelming as it sounds.  Both of my systems are very robust.  I feel PC-based distribution is the way to go now that you can get exact, lossless versions of your music on a PC, and get it to your preamp in perfect form.  I use the M-Audio for my office system, and the Squeezebox for everywhere else in the house.  The squeezebox has a great display and intuitive remote.  You can also control it from a web browser -- even a wireless iPaq in your back yard if you are a real geek!!

Rich

ps - If you invest a lot of time in this, make sure you keep a copy of your data at someone else's house!

[CSMR]

I guess what I'm asking is, what are you all using a) to rip CDs, b) file format and c) play media files?

a) Plexwriter Premium CDRW with Plextools software
b) Lossless (wma and FLAC; they are all basically the same)
c) Foobar 2000

[JohnnyLightOn]

EAC to rip: free.  FLAC to store: free.  Squeezebox as transport to my DAC: $250.  Value of having any track on 400 CDs available at the press of a button...enough said.

[BillyM]

I use CD-Extractor (CdEX) to rip songs off bit-perfect, and the monkeys-audio program to compress losslessly.  I playback the music through Winamp5.x with the kernel-streaming plugin installed.  I tried foobar2k, but once I sourced up a kernel streaming plugin for winamp, foobar lost all its shoe-in.  It plays output from my motherboard's onboard coax digital output to an Adcom DAC direct to the amplifier.


...I will never go back.

---BillyM

[BillyM]

I use CD-Extractor (CdEX) to rip songs off bit-perfect, and the monkeys-audio program to compress losslessly.  I playback the music through Winamp5.x with the kernel-streaming plugin installed.  I tried foobar2k, but once I sourced up a kernel streaming plugin for winamp, foobar lost all its shoe-in.  It plays output from my motherboard's onboard coax digital output to an Adcom DAC direct to the amplifier.


...I will never go back.

---BillyM

[CSMR]

I use CD-Extractor (CdEX) to rip songs off bit-perfect, and the monkeys-audio program to compress losslessly.  I playback the music through Winamp5.x with the kernel-streaming plugin installed.  I tried foobar2k, but once I sourced up a kernel streaming plugin for winamp, foobar lost all its shoe-in.  It plays output from my motherboard's onboard coax digital output to an Adcom DAC direct to the amplifier.


...I will never go back.

---BillyM

Make sure to resample to either 48Khz or a higher sampling rate since I don't believe any motherboard supports 44Khz output.

[dave_c]

Unfortunately my computer is my only system right now. . .

EAC Rip
Foobark2K upsampled 24/96 Playback via ASIO4All
Emu 1212M
VenHaus Pulsar DIY 1/4" - RCA
Sharp EX-111D
NHT SuperZero
Custom 10" Sub

Sounds good, but I wish I had a big room for a big system.  I would still integrate a computer somehow. . .probably laptop with Empirical Audio USB interface.

[Jon L]

Do many here have computer based systems?

I have only just realised that computers can actually produce a high quality sound, provided you have the right equipment and use the right applications.  Although, it won't replace your reference system, the file formats seem to be getting better by the day.

I started out using iTunes, primarily because I had an iPod.  But upon stumbling across a plug-in for Winamp, I made the transition.

Now I had the dilemma of ripping CDs, as I again was using iTunes.   ...

Ripping.  Most decent ripping programs are fine.  iTunes with error correction is just as good as EAC in secure mode, for example, as far as sound quality goes.  

File format.  Definitely use one of the lossless formats.  If need arises, one can always change a lossless format to another format without losing any data.  FLAC is fast becoming the de facto standard, and I use it as well.  Again, sound quality is the same among lossless formats IF everything else is the same.

Player.  This is going to make the most audible difference.  The optimal settings for a given player has to be figured out in a given system/tastes.  Just in Foobar, ASIO, kernel streaming, DirectOut, WaveOut all sound different.  All the little settings, such as resampler, can make a difference.  

BuT the most important thing is to have your files in lossless format.  You can change the ripper, player, even the computer or hard drive.  As long as you have your lossless files available, you can always recreate or upgrade, such as by having a high-quality USB to SPDIF device-->Outboard DAC, or buying a good internal card like Lynx later.

[Neild]

I use EAC along with MAREO to create both lossless FLAC files (for home) and 256 bitrate MP3's (for car/portable) in one pass.

For playback I was tempted by the Squeezebox2 but felt for the same $ I could make a dedicated PC that could also function as the base for adding DVD, DIVX playback and as a PVR.

For soundcard a VIA Envy HT-S which supposedly has very similar playback abilities as the much more expensive M-audio revolution.  So far I haven't tweaked it out so I don't know if K-mixer is coming into play or not.  All I do is run CD's & DVD's and use the SP-DIF passthrough so for that purpose I don't think the k-mixer is affecting it.  Thanks for the heads up about K-mixer though, I'll want to make sure it isn't affecting my file-based playbacks.

[speaker]

Do many here have computer based systems?

I've been using one almost exclusively for 2 years now.

Here's mine:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;system=485

speaker[/url]

[Carlman]

I sold my cd player to get the money to purchase an audio PC.  I'm using a 2.4G Pentium on an Asus motherboard.... and the processor never gets above 36C with the 2 fans spinning very slow.  I could probably run fanless.  I only use about 1-5% of my CPU most of the time.

I'd like to get a new hard drive that's quieter but when I bought my system, it was $600 for a mix of new and used parts in a nice case.

I've used this PC as my sole digital source since I bought it.  I've been slowly ripping cd's to the hard drive using EAC and I've got a nice little library going.  It'll be a while before I've burned everything I've got, though...

Some considerations/challenges with a PC are noise and interface.  I use a flat-panel monitor and a mouse and keyboard, all wired to the PC w/ extension cables.  It works for me in a small room and looks reasonably neat.  I had to Dynamat the interior of the PC and get quieter fans w/ speed adjustments wired.

As to playback, I use ASIO and have tweaked Foobar's settings a little based on a fellow AC member's results (Hantra).  However, I do NOT use FLAC.  To me, the instruments lose their realism in FLAC.  I can't live with it.  All my files are uncompressed wave files and they sound better to me by a wide margin.  

I won't say it's 'easy' but it's not hard to switch to a PC either.  Now that I've got it all setup, it's easier than using a cd player by far... and sounds better than any cd player I could afford.

-C

[John Ashman]

For anyone looking to start from scratch, do this:

Buy a Mac Mini with the 80gig and the full wireless option with wireless keyboard, mouse.  Attach it directly to your HDTV for video (it can sit anywhere, it's so small), then use the wireless option for music with an Airport Express (adds optical output!).  Total cost is about $925.  DVD Player still doesn't do wireless sound, but I suspect that is coming.  There is an option setting for sound output, just like in iTunes, but only one option right now.  I'd be surprised not to see it in OS 10.4.

The cool thing is that you can just put the key/mouse on your coffee table and listen to lossless music, play DVDs etc but the form factor and integration is what really makes it sing.  I still scratch my head that people try to do A/V with PCs.  It's like using a stone to make fire instead of a butane lighter.  

[JoshK]

For now I am doing a little bit different solution.   I am building a music file server and purchased a Squeezebox that I will use together with an MSB Link DAC I am modding.  

From what I have gathered, the Squeezebox uses a file server client on the host computer, it looks to be open source and fairly customizeable, so I will try my hand at room correction.  I just need to obtain a good mic.

[stevekim]

I've been using:

1. Exact Audio Copy for ripping.
2. FLAC for storage on a central server.
3. 100Mbps ethernet connection from the server to a client.
4. foobar2000 with ASIO as the client-side "front end" to the library.
5. Chaintech soundcard, flashed to Prodigy to output a bit-perfect toslink signal.
6. Rotel receiver as D/A converter and amplifier.

Works great, and the sound quality is fabulous. Moving to a PC-based system has been the absolute best A/V investment I've ever made. I'm even considering ditching my DVD player in favor of a PC solution!

[speaker]

For anyone looking to start from scratch, do this:

Buy a Mac Mini with the 80gig and the full wireless option with wireless keyboard, mouse.  Attach it directly to your HDTV for video (it can sit anywhere, it's so small), then use the wireless option for music with an Airport Express (adds optical output!).  Total cost is about $925.

You make a compelling case for Mac. I am rethinking my PC audio system now and adding video capability is likely nexgen for it. The mini would make it so simple. I do agree that everything cool on a PC is a complete workaround. (That is also part of the fun however!)

speaker

[thayerg]

Note that the airport express doesn't do dvd sound because there's no way to sync the airport express's output with the video signal. But a thin toslink cable from the mac mini to your audio system takes care of that.

The mac mini is getting some attention as a media center at

http://centerstageproject.com/

[John Ashman]

That is a good point, though the Mac Mini doesn't have optical out  However, I suspect that a "Super Mini" will come out, Apple likes selling things in threes.  

But I can't believe that a *computer* off all things couldn't deal with latency issues with a little programming.  Computer DVDs don't read in a linear fashion so they can do all kinds of things including reading ahead on the audio and sending it ahead of the video or buffering the video in memory - one DVD frame couldn't be more than about 100kb, so there's plenty of RAM for buffering.

[thayerg]

A usb or firewire doohicky will give you optical audio for fewer greenies than an airport express costs.

I agree with you about overcoming delay. As a fellow Meridian fan you probably appreciate adjustable audio delay for lip sync and that kind of attention to detail is, I think, characteristic of both Meridian and Apple.
The technology to sync airport express audio might also allow multible expresses to deliver synched music throughout a house, for example, a la slimp.

Until then toslink is not so heinous.

[sleepysurf]

I just ordered a Buffalo Linkstation (300 Gigs) network storage device, and a Squeezebox2 (Wireless G).  It includes a remote control.  Squeezebox2/Slimserver also has a large developer community writing plug-ins, even streaming RSS feeds, and cool visualizations (album art in the future?).  Total cost for this system ~$700.  Certainly competitive with the miniMac, and includes optical output.