[Loftprojection]

Boead, very interesting tests and comments.  I find your comment about the 2900 a better transport then the Jolida quite interesting.  I tested the 2900 as a transport against the Cambridge 540D DVD player which is worth about $350 and I found it nicer then the Denon!!!   Well, it was not much better but I found it nicer and warmer to listen to.  It was with a Cambridge 540R receiver as the "decoder" so maybe it is one of the reason.  

However, since that test I basically discarded using the Denon 2900 as a transport.  The Nixon and Benchmark DACs are probably very interesting but I'm definitely not going to rely on the 2900 as a transport.  I have an old Rotel RCC-940ax that I think has the potential of being a better transport than the Denon.

I'm going to do some sound testing on Wednesday.  My favorite store has some stuff to feed my appetite!  We're gonna have the following:

- Arcam CD192
- Naim CD5i
- Musical Fidelity A3 DAC and CD transport combo.  

All of these are around $1500 and we'll hook them up to my Arcam receiver and NHT speakers.   I'm also going to try out the Arcam CD73 with a A65 integrated combo.  This would be the same price as the above so it might be interesting, a lesser CD player with a cheap integrated...

I can't wait to hear the outcome and maybe enjoy the winner at the end of the day! haha

[Hantra]

Of those players, I LOVE the Naim.  

Have fun, and let us know what you hear!

[boead]

Loftprojection, They are all nice players.

The Arcam 192 is essentially a downgraded version of the CD93T, it’s also about $400 cheaper. The CD93 uses the very same board as the FMJ33 and apparently was too close in design and price (FMJ33=$2500, CD93=$1900), the 192 uses a different board, layout and PSU’s. The FMJ33 gets an additional transformer, better chassis and a handful of upgraded caps. The sonic differences between the 33 and the 93 is said to be small ( I haven’t heard the 93 just the 33). I’ve heard that the differences between the 192 and the 93 is significant.
I paid a little less then the retail price of a 192 for a used FMJ 23. I was torn between the Wolfson upsampling design and the dCS Ring’s. I could have gotten a used 93T for the same as the FMJ 23 so the choice was mine. I chose the non-upsampling dCS Ring machine and I am extremely happy with it, it’s consistently jaw drooping. You’re NOT going to hear that from the CD192 and if the sales-guy says, its better beware of his intention – its NOT!

I was also looking at the Naim CD5i (didn’t like the swinging door and puck) and found many nice reviews. Apparently the MF’s are on the bright side or at least came across that way, possibly too much detail for my taste and too not enough soundstage. Those comments were consistent. It’s a matter of synergy and taste. That’s why listening in a store is impossible and not worth much more then a day out and lunch. So the things about the MF that I didn’t like might have worked out just fine in my home.

What was it about the Denon as a transport that you didn’t like? I found the Jolida to be lacking detail and liveliness. The Denon was clean, sharp, detailed and had nice bass and a lively high end that was with my previously owned CAL Sigma-II 24/96, Harmonic Tech AC-10 cord, MIT S2 IC’s and an MIT T3 digital coaxial (about $2400 retail in gear + the transport). Backend was a BAT V3i pre, Rogue 90 amp, Alon One speakers.
Many people use the Denon 2900 as a transport with great success, I’m sort of surprised that you didn’t like it. You may want to re-visit it. What type of digital cable were you using?

If I didn’t buy an Arcam, I would likely have gotten a Naim or a Meridian.

Let us know your impressions.

[Loftprojection]

Boead and all the others that helped me on this, thanks, your comments were appreciated.

I finally got my listening sessions. Brought my Arcam receiver and NHT speakers to 2 different stores. Listened to the following players in this order:

1- Musical Fidelity X-rayV3 – detailed sound, good bass, very good overall, nothing I can say is negative but somehow nothing to excite me either.
2- Musical Fidelity A3 DAC and CD transport combo – similar experience to the X-ray, a little more performance and details than the X-ray but again nothing very exciting. Surprising because this combo is worth almost double the price of the X-ray.
3- Moon Equinox – ok out of my budget but let's just see for fun... oufffff, I almost fainted, I just put one CD in and took it out, this was too good, I prefered not to listen to it.
4- Arcam CD73 – hum, very nice, a little less performance then the Musical Fidelity stuff but much more exciting then the Musical Fidelity, specially considering the much lower price.
5- Naim 5i – ho, a good step above both the Arcam 73 and the Musical Fidelity. Sound is like dead silence between each instruments, very smooth highs, overall the best yet but also the most expensive (aside from the Moon which is not a contender anyway).
6- Creek CD50MK2 – This is an interesting performance. Good detail, nice and smooth but a little more aggressive then Naim with highs. Lacking a bit in the bass though.
7- Arcam CD23 – The Arcam sound that I like, nice, smooth, VERY good bass, exciting sound. A good notch above the cd73, more refine, more detail, more of everything. I find the soundstage is a little less refined then the Naim and Creek tough. The machine is worth more then the Creek and the Naim but it’s a demo that they want to get out so I can have it for less than the other two…

Conclusion, I bought the Arcam CD23. I would say the Naim and Creek are very close to the Arcam and it’s a matter of taste. If I would have had to pay full price for the Arcam then I would have hesitated with the Naim for sure.

All these players were a good step above my Cambridge 540D and I don’t even have to mention that they are 20,000 leagues above the Denon 2900!

I guess the difference would be even more apparent if I had a very good integrated to go with the CD23.  My Arcam receiver is doing an incredible job but I might now look for an integrated that would put more value in my CD23.  Something in the $1000-1500 range maybe! haha  music is a never ending loop!

Cheers.

[Hantra]

Glad you found something you like.  

Don't be quick to dismiss that receiver.  I owned the AVR-100 for quite some time in my 2 channel system.

[Loftprojection]

Thanks Hantra.

I know this little Arcam receiver is something good.  A few weeks ago I shopped for a receiver and found nothing that matches it in the <$1500 range.  When I shopped for CD players today, I also tried the Musical Fidelity X-150 and the Creek A50i.  Both were a little better then my receiver but not by a big margin.  Certainly not enough to justify spending the $1000 they were asking for them.  

However, I might try to check out something in the tube stuff, I saw a used Shanling STP-80 that might be interesting, Jolida stuff is not too expensive... I guess I'll have to shop around again and maybe it wont be worth it unless I spend in excess of $2000.

[boead]

Conclusion, I bought the Arcam CD23. I would say the Naim and Creek are very close to the Arcam and it’s a matter of taste. If I would have had to pay full price for the Arcam then I would have hesitated with the Naim for sure...

Congratulation on the FMJ, it’s a wonderful player.

I just got back from a friends, we listened to the FMJ CD23T against his Meridian 588. Interesting difference. We rolled between two power cords, a Harmonic Tech AC-10 Fantasy and a JPS Labs Digital Reference (both cords retail about $400/meter). In both cases the JPS showed a little deeper bass and had a livelier presentation, the Harmonic Tech had a slightly rolled off top end with a richer more alluring midrange.
Neither players had any drawback worth mentioning so I’ll mention what they excelled at. The Meridian was livelier, had a touch more detail and transparency with a more present and forward midrange. With the JPS cord it was possibly a touch too edgy, with the Harmonic Tech the vocals were smoother and never edgy.
The Arcam FMJ was appealingly darker (laidback) and quiet – less present but still very much in the room, never edgy especially in the vocal/midrange. Bass wasn’t quite as full as the Meridian but still extended and tight, never felt like it was lacking. The Meridian just has a bit more weight. The soundstage on the Arcam was largest; this player just has a big soundstage. With his gear (BAT V3i pre, Rogue 90 (KT88’s), Alon Model One speakers) the vocals were nicely focused within the large soundstage. With the Harmonic Tech cord the high end was less lively then the JPS, I think the JPS cord was best for the Arcam while the Harmonic Tech was somewhat better with the Meridian.

The Arcam FMJ faired very well against the Meridian. In my system the Meridian might be too aggressive for my taste but both players were closest to neutral then others I have heard.

Both players are non-upsampling and are a couple of years old. The Arcam retailed for $2400, the Meridian $3600. Both can be had used for about 50% list.

The Arcam is certainly a VERY good deal in a HiFi CD Player.

And yeah, I agree with Loftprojection. The Arcam eats the Denon 2900 up! No comparison.

[Loftprojection]

boead, I forgot to mention it, I'm not sure but I think my CD23 is a CD23T because on the CD door there is the mention "text" but on the right side of the front panel it's only written CD23.  How do you differentiate the two, is yours written CD23T on the pannel?

I think I have to start looking also at my cables.  I would say I have pretty good stuff.  My speaker cables are definitely top notch but my interconnect could probably get an improvement.  I think they are an old MIT that I don't remember the name but they have this little square box in the middle that is probably some kind of filter.  I find the soundstage/imaging lacking a bit of definition with the CD23 so I assume it could be improved however I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm willing to pay $400 per meter! haha   Have you tried anything else that would give a good bang for the buck or do you think my current MIT are not worth changing?  

Thanks again for your help.

[boead]

boead, I forgot to mention it, I'm not sure but I think my CD23 is a CD23T because on the CD door there is the mention "text" but on the right side of the front panel it's only written CD23.  How do you differentiate the two, is yours written CD23T on the panel?

I think I have to start looking also at my cables.  I would say I have pretty good stuff.  My speaker cables are definitely top notch but my interconnect could probably get an improvement.  I think they are an old MIT that I don't remember the n ...

Its definitely a CD23T. The non-T was made in 1999 and 2000, the T was made in 2001, 2002 and 2003. In serial number I believe it will start off this way: C23Txxxxx.

The best way to listen to cables is to go to www.usedcables.com, ask for Steve. He’s very good and knowledgeable. You borrow, cables and commit to 5% of the list price towards ‘any’ future purchase (they give you at least a year). You can buy new (at very reasonable prices, certainly lower then retail stores) or you can buy used (on par with Audiogon). They have a full 30 day exchange policy so if you pick a cable and decide you just don’t like it, you can try something else.
They are not pushy and have a large selection of cables to borrow which are all well broken in. They also have a big database so he can look up your components and tell you what other customers with the same or similar gear bought and what their comments were.  

I think power cords make a giant difference, maybe more so then IC’s.