[SoundSound]

Dear experts, could you please share your reasons choosing one model over the other, and, most importantly, if are you happy with your decision?
Obviously, important factors in play here are the listening space and amplification available. What about the influence of your music preferences: organ, classical, opera, vocal jazz, pop, rock, big orchestras, etc.? 
I am positive such discussion would benefit all prospective members of the Spatial Community.
Please chime in!

[Tyson]

I went with the X series over the M series because I have a variety of SET amps I want to use, from 2 watts to 4 watts to 8 watts to 18 watts.  For amps this small, 97db vs 92db efficiency matters.  Also, having the bass off loaded from these amps helps a lot too.  So for me the X series was the better choice.

[Mr. Big]

Sapphires M3's will play all the music you like exceedingly well. It all gets into the room size on which speakers will work the best and how far you can sit from the speakers. Clayton will offer the best advise, for me he said the M3's and he was right, so take the word of the designer.

[morganc]

I went with the X series over the M series because I have a variety of SET amps I want to use, from 2 watts to 4 watts to 8 watts to 18 watts.  For amps this small, 97db vs 92db efficiency matters.  Also, having the bass off loaded from these amps helps a lot too.  So for me the X series was the better choice.

How do the X Series compare to the Super 7?  Sorry to derail your thread OP, perhaps Tyson can share a comparison in another thread?

[morganc]

Dear experts, could you please share your reasons choosing one model over the other, and, most importantly, if are you happy with your decision?
Obviously, important factors in play here are the listening space and amplification available. What about the influence of your music preferences: organ, classical, opera, vocal jazz, pop, rock, big orchestras, etc.? 
I am positive such discussion would benefit all prospective members of the Spatial Community.
Please chime in!

I have the X-5 and love them though I’m a bit closer to them at the seated position than is ideal. I believe that room size and sitting distance is a very important reason to choose one over the other.

[Tyson]

How do the X Series compare to the Super 7?  Sorry to derail your thread OP, perhaps Tyson can share a comparison in another thread?

I'll let you know in 6 weeks when the X3's ship to me.

[geerock]

I chose the X5's because, to me it was the latest model for Spatial Audio.  The m sapphires were an improvement in the previous m series.  The x series has the DSP controlled woofer, the super strong Ultralam baffle, and that custom Beyma tweeter may be one of the best in the world.  I'm a tube guy and Clayton told me the x's, in fact all the Spatial sound great with tubes.  Glad I chose them.

[Desertpilot]

There is no easy answer to your question.  The tweeters are very different, crossover is different and the X series has an amplified bass driver among other differences.  You may favor the sound of one tweeter over the other.  In my case, my listening area is part of a huge "great" room with 14 foot vaulted ceilings.  I went with the X3 to fill the space plus I wanted the AMT driver.  I listen almost entirely to classical from chamber to choral to full orchestra.  My music collection is hi-rez DSD and PCM played via ROON to my exaSound DAC.  I'm all solid state and have not felt the need to change to tubes.

Good luck in your journey to open baffle audio nirvana.

Marcus

[newzooreview]

In listening to Clayton in his Youtube interviews (San Francisco Audio Society, New Record Day, and LTA), I came away with three impressions.

1. The X series is a better choice for very low wattage (e.g. SET) amps due to its much better efficiency. The work of powering the second 12" (or 15") driver (subwoofer) is offloaded to the amp in the speaker. The X series speakers are 97 dB at 8 ohms, so they are much friendlier than the M series for a few watts to drive.

2. The X series AMT driver is in a wave guide so the sound from the AMT has better directional control. If you are listening 15 feet out from the speakers in a larger room, the wave guide is going to mitigate the mids and treble from reflecting off of the room walls, giving you the best soundstage and tone and detail. The M3 Sapphire mid-tweeter radiates a bit more broadly. So the X series will have an advantage in large rooms where the AMT driver helps to minimize first reflections while the M3S might provide a bit larger sweet spot when listening in the 7-9 foot range of a small to medium-sized room. I am sure the X series can be dialed in for closer in listening, but the wider dispersion of the M3 mid-treble driver will always interact with the room more at farther listening distances. An M3 in a larger room might warrant more and different room treatments for ceiling, floor, and wall first reflections. That's what I inferred from Clayton's interviews at least.

3. The X series AMT driver might be more precise in how it reproduces harmonics. In the New Record Day comparison of the M3 and X5 on Youtube, there's a track with piano that he hears as more correct on the X5 compared to the M3 Sapphire. He's using a Neumann binaural mic dummy head, so the comparison is worth the listen with headphones. i can hear the decay of the harmonics from the AMT when the piano starts playing in the jazz track, and I get what he's saying. But the M3 sounds very natural on the same track, and down in the comments there's guy who says he's a bass player and to his ears the M3S reproduces the stand-up bass more naturally and conveys the communication between bass player and pianist more realistically. Youtube seems to stream higher bitrate audio when streaming higher resolution video, so setting the video to the max resolution could help.

I don't use a 1-6 watt amp, I have a small-medium sized room (16x13), and practical considerations put me seven feet from the speakers so I went with the M3 Sapphire. Having heard the M3S at Linear Tube Audio for the first time in person yesterday, I think the choice will work out very well. Maybe someday I'll hear the X series and know more about the differences than I do by drawing inferences from online sources.

Happy listening! 

[Spatial Audio]

In listening to Clayton in his Youtube interviews (San Francisco Audio Society, New Record Day, and LTA), I came away with three impressions.

1. The X series is a better choice for very low wattage (e.g. SET) amps due to its much better efficiency. The work of powering the second 12" (or 15") driver (subwoofer) is offloaded to the amp in the speaker. The X series speakers are 97 dB at 8 ohms, so they are much friendlier than the M series for a few watts to drive.

2. The X series AMT driver is in a wave guide so the sound from the AMT has better directional control. If you are listening 15 feet out from the speakers in a larger room, the wave guide is going to mitigate the mids and treble from reflecting off of the room walls, giving you the best soundstage and tone and detail. The M3 Sapphire mid-tweeter radiates a bit more broadly. So the X series will have an advantage in large rooms where the AMT driver helps to minimize first reflections while the M3S might provide a bit larger sweet spot when listening in the 7-9 foot range of a small to medium-sized room. I am sure the X series can be dialed in for closer in listening, but the wider dispersion of the M3 mid-treble driver will always interact with the room more at farther listening distances. An M3 in a larger room might warrant more and different room treatments for ceiling, floor, and wall first reflections. That's what I inferred from Clayton's interviews at least.

3. The X series AMT driver might be more precise in how it reproduces harmonics. In the New Record Day comparison of the M3 and X5 on Youtube, there's a track with piano that he hears as more correct on the X5 compared to the M3 Sapphire. He's using a Neumann binaural mic dummy head, so the comparison is worth the listen with headphones. i can hear the decay of the harmonics from the AMT when the piano starts playing in the jazz track, and I get what he's saying. But the M3 sounds very natural on the same track, and down in the comments there's guy who says he's a bass player and to his ears the M3S reproduces the stand-up bass more naturally and conveys the communication between bass player and pianist more realistically. Youtube seems to stream higher bitrate audio when streaming higher resolution video, so setting the video to the max resolution could help.

I don't use a 1-6 watt amp, I have a small-medium sized room (16x13), and practical considerations put me seven feet from the speakers so I went with the M3 Sapphire. Having heard the M3S at Linear Tube Audio for the first time in person yesterday, I think the choice will work out very well. Maybe someday I'll hear the X series and know more about the differences than I do by drawing inferences from online sources.

Happy listening! 

Thanks NewZoo - You accurately described the differences between the M and X series models and my recommendations for their application. Since everyone has their own unique set of circumstances, I always prefer to see a couple of pictures of the room and the dimensions, so I can comment on the best model and location in the room.

Clayton
www.spatialaudiolab.com

[newzooreview]

Thanks NewZoo - You accurately described the differences between the M and X series models and my recommendations for their application. Since everyone has their own unique set of circumstances, I always prefer to see a couple of pictures of the room and the dimensions, so I can comment on the best model and location in the room.

Awesome. Thank you.

[SoundSound]

What an excellent, fruitful discussion! 

In my previous life I was always trying to get clearly defined requirements from my clients. Something like “Authentication process should take no more than N seconds”...

Amplification requirements in both cases clearly defined as follows:
M3 Sapphire - Compatible with solid state amplifier 8 watts and up into 4 Ohms
X5 - Compatible with solid state and tubed amplifiers 8 watts and up

To define speakers positioning requirements, we need the following parameters:
distance from the front wall (F), 
distance between the speakers (X),
distance from the side wall (S),
listening distance (L),
toe-in angle (A),
anything else?

I was hoping we could come up with recommendations for both models: F ± ∆, X ± ∆, S ± ∆, L ± ∆, A ± ∆ (∆ can be different for each parameter)...

I don't use a 1-6 watt amp, I have a small-medium sized room (16x13), and practical considerations put me seven feet from the speakers so I went with the M3 Sapphire.

In my case, my listening area is part of a huge "great" room with 14 foot vaulted ceilings.  I went with the X3 to fill the space plus I wanted the AMT driver.  I listen almost entirely to classical from chamber to choral to full orchestra.

I have the X-5 and love them though I’m a bit closer to them at the seated position than is ideal. I believe that room size and sitting distance is a very important reason to choose one over the other.

In case there is no adequate mathematical model to get such recommendations, maybe we can gather the appropriate empirical data and still come up with clearly defined recommendations? 
Otherwise, we have to “bug” Clayton each and every time...

[Mr. Big]

You buy a speaker, then let it burn-in, then start positioning the speakers, you then learn how the posting changes the sound, too much bass, lack of bass, too wide of an image too small of an image, room acoustics after a while you will learn how that given speaker reacts to changes in your room with your gear, never owned a speaker where that is not the case, reviews tell you zip, only how it sounded in their room with their gear so it is useless but good sales tool which is what magazines are these days, these are not the hobbyist days back in the late '70s and '80s.

I now understand that if I toe in my M3's 1/4" I know how the imaging and details will change, same for moving forward 3-6" or back 3-6" from where they sit today. No room is perfect so you have to learn how to work with it and all of this takes time, only thing Clayton can tell you is general guidelines and how his design reacts and that is just start for your room, then you have to educate yourself and become the expert for that given speaker no matter the brand in your room with your gear. It does take time but it can be a fun time to learn. Clayton can tell you which speaker will work the best in a given room and that is pricesless. 

[morganc]

You buy a speaker, then let it burn in, then start positioning the speakers, you then learn how the posting changes the sound, too much bass, lack of bass, too wide of an image too small of an image, room acoustics after away you will learn how that given speaker reacts to changes in your room with your gear, never owned a speaker where that is not the case, reviews tell you zip only how it sounded in their room with their gear.

I now understand if I toe in my M3's 1/4" I know how the imaging and details will change, same for moving forward 3-6" or back 3-6" from where they sit today. No room is perfect so you have to learn how to work with it and all of this takes time, only thing Clayton can tell you is general guidelines and how his design reacts and that is a start for your room, then you have to educate yourself and become the expert for that given speaker no matter the brand in your room with your gear. It does take time but it can be fun time to learn.

That's exactly my process as well.  Well said.

[newzooreview]

Amplification requirements in both cases clearly defined as follows:
M3 Sapphire - Compatible with solid state amplifier 8 watts and up into 4 Ohms
X5 - Compatible with solid state and tubed amplifiers 8 watts and up

The M3 Sapphires work beautifully with tube amps, just not very low wattage (<8 watts) tube amps.

It might also be worth factoring in that the X series has a tweeter that is open in the back and the M series has a tweeter that is closed in back (on the M series the 15" drivers are open baffle, not the M100 tweeter). So, the X series might give a little more open baffle sound of the recording venue with a tradeoff of having to, potentially, be more attentive to front wall (behind the speaker) treatments and distance.

And there is always the cost difference to factor into the decision algorithm.

Happy listening! 

[Desertpilot]

I think everyone is correct.

When you purchase a pair of speakers, they have to go somewhere in your listening space to begin using them.  Guidelines are helpful.  Clayton says, for the X3s, minimum distance is 3.5 feet from the front wall (for soundstage and depth) and 18 inches from the side wall (to allow cancellation to take effect).  I would expect we could also come up with an "average" of spacing.  In my case, 9 feet apart and 10 feet to MLP.  Toe-in for me is a modest 10 to 15 degrees.  A guideline or an average of spacing by owners would help prospective buyers.

Mr. Big is also correct.  You can't feel that the speakers are "dialed in" until you run them awhile and try different positioning.  Everyone's listening space is different.  Add room treatments to the mix and listening spaces become unique to the specific listener.

The AMT driver does produce a lot of sound from the back of the speaker.  I placed a GIK 6A absorber/diffusor behind each speaker to calm things down.

Nice discussion.

Marcus

[doggie]

The AMT driver does produce a lot of sound from the back of the speaker.  I placed a GIK 6A absorber/diffusor behind each speaker to calm things down.

When I stand behind my X5's I only hear sound from the midrange and bass drivers. I hear nothing from the backside of the AMT.


I did notice that the backside of the AMT has some felt-like material placed in the central opening.

[Mr. Big]

I think everyone is correct.

When you purchase a pair of speakers, they have to go somewhere in your listening space to begin using them.  Guidelines are helpful.  Clayton says, for the X3s, minimum distance is 3.5 feet from the front wall (for soundstage and depth) and 18 inches from the side wall (to allow cancellation to take effect).  I would expect we could also come up with an "average" of spacing.  In my case, 9 feet apart and 10 feet to MLP.  Toe-in for me is a modest 10 to 15 degrees.  A guideline or an average of spacing by owners would help prospective buyers.

Mr. Big is also correct.  You can't feel that the speakers are "dialed in" until you run them awhile and try different positioning.  Everyone's listening space is different.  Add room treatments to the mix and listening spaces become unique to the specific listener.

The AMT driver does produce a lot of sound from the back of the speaker.  I placed a GIK 6A absorber/diffusor behind each speaker to calm things down.

Nice discussion.

Marcus

Your right the front wall is so important on any speakers that radiate sound from the back of the speaker. Spatial is much easier than my Quads where they sound just as loud from the back of the speaker as the front. So I was set for the M3's Sapphires in that important area, my biggest learning curve was understanding the speaker itself and after Quads. Speaker cables make a big impact on the Sapphires M3's than the Quads due to having those woofers and tweeter to drive. Quads just need a high-quality well made speaker wire. I found Analysis Plus Black Mesh Over 9 worked great and used at a very good price. That is of course a 9 gauge wire. 

[Desertpilot]

When I stand behind my X5's I only hear sound from the midrange and bass drivers. I hear nothing from the backside of the AMT.


I did notice that the backside of the AMT has some felt-like material placed in the central opening.

You are correct and I was wrong.  I played music this morning and put my ear next to the back of the AMT driver and no sound.

Marcus

[newzooreview]

I played music this morning and put my ear next to the back of the AMT driver and no sound.
Marcus

Interesting.

It's just idle curiosity on my part, but I clearly recall in at least one of the interviews that Clayton gave that the X series has an open-back tweeter design compared to the closed-back tweeter in the M series. Two of the changes that Clayton had Peerless make for the custom tweeter in the M series were 1) addition of the use of ferrofluid to cool the tweeter and 2) closing in the back of the tweeter, recalling one of the interviews.

The Spatial audio website also describes the AMT in the X series as "dipolar" (emphasis mine):

State of The Art AMT Driver: The World’s finest Air Motion Transformer unit covers the upper midrange, up to the ultrasonic region in a single element, with low distortion and controlled directivity radiation properties. This dipolar unit’s intrinsic high efficiency and large surface area provide unparalleled upper register reproduction,…

It's certainly possible that both are true: the AMT tweeter is fully open in back, but it isn't always audible?

Or a change was made in production at some point?

Merely curious how the seemingly conflicting evidence aligns.

Happy listening.