Upgrades for the Spatial speakers

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Audiophile58

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Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« on: 29 May 2021, 06:20 pm »
Myself having over 20 years in voicing Xovers and having heard all their models .
The Purple Clsrity CSA capacitors have been a solid capacitor , that being said for the last 3 years and have used every brand out there some like Duelund have caps the size of hockey pucks and cost a mint .
That being Said VH Audio is known to all major upgrade designers. Their Odam capacitors are not too big
And have sonics that are a Big step up from Clarity caps and even $$ well know capacitors and can be ordered with tolerances under .5% for a matched pair unheard of in the industry and would be exceptional . Just think how much more coherent the Beyma driver would be with these capacitors. I have used them in speakers for myself and others, as well as in Dacs ,and preamplifier so. Just check them out on VH audios web site.
Clayton  has  heard them  , I would think these would be a great upgrade option being there only 2 caps per speaker.
Myself and other are also hoping Clayton will soon implement  having an app for adjustable Bass ,Burr Brown
Builds a very cost effective electronic volume Attenuator using 1% surface mount resistors it would make the Xseries that much better still. Why settle for good enough  when these options are very cost effective Big improvements to a excellentLoudspeaker design .

rollo

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #1 on: 29 May 2021, 06:29 pm »
   In our experience we found the VH cap dry in character especially their Teflon caps. We prefer Duelund CAST which are less money now. Second bringing the crossover out of the speaker gave us huge improvement as well with every speaker we tried. A no brainer.  Duelund resistors are well worth the money and sound great. Not a cap dealer.

charles

geerock

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #2 on: 29 May 2021, 11:17 pm »
The easy way to experiment with caps is to unsolder the Plus lead (right side looking from the rear) of the AMT and run a new external lead from the red WBT binding post up to a capacitor and then to the tweeter. The value is 4uF.  I've put a couple binding posts on a board so I dont have to solder in the caps, simply drop them in and thumbscrew them down.  And no reason to crack open the speakers, which will void the warrantee.
I've tried the VCap Odams and agree they are dry and brittle when first installed, but they are notorious for needing long break in.  When they settled in they were a nice change.  Keep in mind those caps are directional.


Audiophile58

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #3 on: 30 May 2021, 02:31 pm »
To Rollo and others  , if you have not used the Current VH Audio  Odam caps for any length of time you are speaking with out any knowledge base , and if you look on customer feedback some prefer these Odam caps for their Naturalness ,and
Especially their size , and cost vs Duelund even myself find the cast Duelund a bit too lush - colorations on some applications.
The Odam caps are much less expensive , and in the Spatial Audio x3,X5  there is  No room for those
Huge cast caps , and the capacitors would cost more then several of the drivers put together !!
I am speaking of  sonics , size and value, nothing more. I would encourage you to investigate these
Newer VH audio Odam capacitors they have a growing following with many builders,
And as I stated earlier the Odam  caps were used in preamplifier sections ,dacs, and loudspeakers
Which myself  and others have done with Outstanding results and for the record Night and Day better
Tolerances then Duelund in every respect ,for $12 per pair matched to under.05% per pair ,Duelund not even close  to that .

aniwolfe

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #4 on: 30 May 2021, 02:36 pm »
Myself having over 20 years in voicing Xovers and having heard all their models .
The Purple Clsrity CSA capacitors have been a solid capacitor , that being said for the last 3 years and have used every brand out there some like Duelund have caps the size of hockey pucks and cost a mint .
That being Said VH Audio is known to all major upgrade designers. Their Odam capacitors are not too big
And have sonics that are a Big step up from Clarity caps and even $$ well know capacitors and can be ordered with tolerances under .5% for a matched pair unheard of in the industry and would be exceptional . Just think how much more coherent the Beyma driver would be with these capacitors. I have used them in speakers for myself and others, as well as in Dacs ,and preamplifier so. Just check them out on VH audios web site.
Clayton  has  heard them  , I would think these would be a great upgrade option being there only 2 caps per speaker.
Myself and other are also hoping Clayton will soon implement  having an app for adjustable Bass ,Burr Brown
Builds a very cost effective electronic volume Attenuator using 1% surface mount resistors it would make the Xseries that much better still. Why settle for good enough  when these options are very cost effective Big improvements to a excellentLoudspeaker design .

Funny you mention this. I just replaced the stock caps in my X2 Spatials with the V-Cap ODAMS. The Beyma driver becomes a much more developed driver, more opened, smoother and resolving, truly even more exceptional than before. Far from Dry and Brittle in my setup. Though I have heard this view on the ODAM before, but trusted my friend who mods everything he gets his hands on and we both have very similar tastes, which include not liking bright or hard sounding systems.

Because of what I have experienced with the ODAMs I just completed yesterday a outerbox xover and rewired the X2's. New inductors, VH Audio Solid Core Copper Wire/Airlok throughout and GR Research Tube connectors.  :thumb:

Audiophile58

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #5 on: 30 May 2021, 03:00 pm »
Thanks for chiming in  I have used these for 3 years now in multiple items and these are Great sounding caps .
The   $12 dollar I am referring to is the cost for matching the capacitors per pair.

rollo

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #6 on: 30 May 2021, 03:04 pm »
To Rollo and others  , if you have not used the Current VH Audio  Odam caps for any length of time you are speaking with out any knowledge base , and if you look on customer feedback some prefer these Odam caps for their Naturalness ,and
Especially their size , and cost vs Duelund even myself find the cast Duelund a bit too lush - colorations on some applications.
The Odam caps are much less expensive , and in the Spatial Audio x3,X5  there is  No room for those
Huge cast caps , and the capacitors would cost more then several of the drivers put together !!
I am speaking of  sonics , size and value, nothing more. I would encourage you to investigate these
Newer VH audio Odam capacitors they have a growing following with many builders,
And as I stated earlier the Odam  caps were used in preamplifier sections ,dacs, and loudspeakers
Which myself  and others have done with Outstanding results and for the record Night and Day better
Tolerances then Duelund in every respect ,for $12 per pair matched to under.05% per pair ,Duelund not even close  to that .


   The V-Cap Teflon not Odam took 1000 hours to sound right. Chris was getting complaints every day. Finally had to  make a statement about long break in time. Measurements matter however sonic performance trumps measurements. According to the Cap shoot out guys and our ears Duelund is still King. We get our Duelund matched as well. Tolerance for CAST is .02%.
   Trying the Odom is the only way to find out. We do not find the Duelund Caps Lush or colored at all. Depends on component/cap combo used. Not here to argue about caps or claim to be a self proclaimed cap expert. We will try some day cheap enough. we do not sell caps.


charles



Audiophile58

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #7 on: 30 May 2021, 03:14 pm »
As far as Resistors -0 in the Spatial x3,x5
That being said I have spent 20 + years with voic8ng Xover parts the best resistors to date
Far better then the Duelund resistors including the cast are the exceptional
Path audio resistors from Poland 10watts  not cheap at $26 each ,and put can take many times their watt rating, and have a Copper outer shield plus grounding wire, very very natural ,not colored like Duelunds, and accuracy on average under .75% !!

rollo

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #8 on: 30 May 2021, 03:20 pm »
As far as Resistors -0 in the Spatial x3,x5
That being said I have spent 20 + years with voic8ng Xover parts the best resistors to date
Far better then the Duelund resistors including the cast are the exceptional
Path audio resistors from Poland 10watts  not cheap at $26 each ,and put can take many times their watt rating, and have a Copper outer shield plus grounding wire, very very natural ,not colored like Duelunds, and accuracy on average under .75% !!


 There is no best. Voicing determines that for each application. Path are excellent as well. Both excellent products. Why the Duelund bashing ?

charles

Audiophile58

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #9 on: 31 May 2021, 08:43 am »
No Dueund bsashing they have been way overpriced , and unless you have a Big cabinet or external cabinet
Not practical . For the money they charge their resistors are carbon  they for sure color the sound
And a +- 5% tolerance is a 10%  variance that’s Waay to high IMO for a resistor ,Path audio without
Question allow more detail and on average .75% or less per resistor it’s the best resistor I have used .         The cast caps are excellent .But are too Big for most internal stock applications  and Waay overpriced ,
With the limited space in the Spatial Audio Loudspeaker, a upgrade path thst would fit was the main objective nothing more .if you want to spend $1000s on capacitors that’s good, I have used their caps in the past .
If I wanted to build a external Xover for the Spatial and a cost no object Xover the cast would certainly be be considered .It would’ve interesting to hear how they would work with the Beyma driver .
 

Don_S

Upgraded Crossover for Spatial M5 Sapphires
« Reply #10 on: 31 May 2021, 10:18 pm »
Here is a drop-in upgraded crossover for Spatial M5 Sapphire speakers only. Original component values have been maintained (except for increasing the MRT bypass cap to 1.0uF) but component quality has been seriously upgraded. Note the XO installs with a 4mm hex wrench just like the stock XO but requires additional wires (not included) from the Cardas output binding posts to the woofer and MRT. This is self-contained so ignore the input binding posts mounted in the speaker base.

The original inductor from Spatial is reused in the XO but the accompanying capacitor is replaced with a 33uF AuricapXO  from Audience.

The midrange/tweeter is connected to a 33uF AuricapXO bypassed by a Miflex KPCU 1.0uF 600VDC Copper foil Poly/Paper in Oil precision matched to L2 from Sonic Craft.

Notes from the parts picture. The wire in the picture was not used. The original Duelund wire was used. Assembled picture is before tacking with silicone.

Benefits were increased smoothness in the midrange and highs and a more holographic presentation.

$650 plus shipping US Only. Cashier's Check or Money Order.







Audiophile58

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #11 on: 1 Jun 2021, 10:48 am »
On the upgrade with the picture on the M5 Sapphire the inductor this sledge hammer type iron core  very entry level
Should be at least upgraded to a Jantzen open core awg 14 , which is night and day better far less saturation
And much higher cooling capabilities. The Milflex are very good caps ,for Bass the Aura caps are respectable .

What did the stock Xover have for capacitors ?

rollo

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #12 on: 1 Jun 2021, 03:14 pm »
 That inductor can be improved. Try Duelund bypass caps.

charles

Audiophile58

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #13 on: 1 Jun 2021, 03:20 pm »
Charles you are spot on 👍

Mr. Big

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #14 on: 1 Jun 2021, 03:23 pm »
A reviewer came by and changed out the caps with Mundorf silver, I took a listen with him and the speaker balance was thrown way off, yet it had more air and details but also brighter, with vocals thinning out, etc. Yes it sounded different the change was not hard to hear, but out went the Mundorf and connection back to the caps that were used by Clayton to "Voice" his design, then he added a resister to the tweeter he said it sounded smoother, well yes it did it also killed the balance and now sound hollow closed in, point being any mod can change the sound, but it usually is just that a change but not necessarily better. The designer is not dumb they know what they are doing, now if Clayon said I have an updated Crossover you can purchase and he can send it out to replace the one we now use, that is one thing, he knows his speaker and he knows if the change is an improvement. There is more to design than better parts being used, it is hard work for those parts to work together to give you the sound you paid for. What is the part replaced passes more highs, then the design was made to do, yes it a brighter sound now yes different, the guy selling it will say yes your hearing more details now, well turn up the treble on a receiver and you can accomplish the same thing for free. Mods will sound different all right but does that make that sound correct. Food for thought.

Mr. Big

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #15 on: 1 Jun 2021, 03:24 pm »
I am not against those who mod gear, but I learned it like any other new gear you buy or try you may like and then you may not. It really is a crap shoot.

rollo

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #16 on: 1 Jun 2021, 03:33 pm »
A reviewer came by and changed out the caps with Mundorf silver, I took a listen with him and the speaker balance was thrown way off, yet it had more air and details but also brighter, with vocals thinning out, etc. Yes it sounded different the change was not hard to hear, but out went the Mundorf and connection back to the caps that were used by Clayton to "Voice" his design, then he added a resister to the tweeter he said it sounded smoother, well yes it did it also killed the balance and now sound hollow closed in, point being any mod can change the sound, but it usually is just that a change but not necessarily better. The designer is not dumb they know what they are doing, now if Clayon said I have an updated Crossover you can purchase and he can send it out to replace the one we now use, that is one thing, he knows his speaker and he knows if the change is an improvement. There is more to design than better parts being used, it is hard work for those parts to work together to give you the sound you paid for. What is the part replaced passes more highs, then the design was made to do, yes it a brighter sound now yes different, the guy selling it will say yes your hearing more details now, well turn up the treble on a receiver and you can accomplish the same thing for free. Mods will sound different all right but does that make that sound correct. Food for thought.

  Agree if just picking a part and hoping for improvement. Of Clayton voices His Speaker. However He uses a different system than others. Difference just for difference is wasteful. Knowing the sonic character of parts goes a long way.

charles

Audiophile58

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #17 on: 1 Jun 2021, 03:43 pm »
That is exactly why I responded ,I have extensive experience with the current
Caps -Clarity CSA capacitors in the current X3, X5 Loudspeakers and the VH audio
Odam capacitors are just slightly warmer then neutral but a very natural well balanced capacitor .I highly recommend these capacitors ,I have installed these in preamps,
Dacs, and several Xovers. For myself and others over the last 3 years .these caps
Are a solid upgrade to the clarity caps even clarity top Cmr caps !!

rollo

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #18 on: 1 Jun 2021, 06:49 pm »
That is exactly why I responded ,I have extensive experience with the current
Caps -Clarity CSA capacitors in the current X3, X5 Loudspeakers and the VH audio
Odam capacitors are just slightly warmer then neutral but a very natural well balanced capacitor .I highly recommend these capacitors ,I have installed these in preamps,
Dacs, and several Xovers. For myself and others over the last 3 years .these caps
Are a solid upgrade to the clarity caps even clarity top Cmr caps !!


 Thank you for your experiences with Spatial crossovers. For my 211 Amps I like a VH Teflon cap at input and Duelund output combo. Great synergy. Different strokes for different folks. All helpful info.

charles

catluck

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Re: Upgrades for the Spatial speakers
« Reply #19 on: 2 Jun 2021, 02:48 pm »
Are you folks also suggesting a XO upgrade for the M3 Sapph's? Has anyone looked at the XO? Ideas?