[MasterHiFi]

Hello All,

It is by pure chance that I stumbled onto the GR Research YT channel, and then New Record Day which allowed me to learn what kind of speaker could actually provide the kind of sound that I have been searching for.

The kind of sound is, in order of importance: realistic, focused, "holographic" 3D soundstage, inc. width, height and depth. Fast transients and inner detail. Accurate tone and timber. Convincing dynamics. So, not too picky at all...

FWIW, I worked in high end audio for a number of years, and then again in mid-fi. We were dealers for B&W, Klipsch and Polk, had previously been dealers for ADS, plus electronics such as Krell, Threshold, Forte, Nakamichi, Denon, etc. Even a little bit of the Conrad Johnson line.

I spent years training my ears to the point that I could determine in a blind A-B test if the Tone Control "Defeat" switch was engaged or not on a high quality preamp with the tone controls set to "Flat". Not a brag or a boast, it's honestly kind of a drag and makes the challenge of finding equipment that you can live with all the more difficult, as you end up listening to the flaws instead of the music.

I now understand (thanks Danny and Ron!!) all the benefits of the open baffle design and either the NX-Oticas as well as the very fine Linkwitz LX521s would be tremendous additions to virtually any audio setup.

The problem is my room. I don't really live in a studio, we have four rooms plus a walk-in kitchen. But my listening space does not allow me to bring my speakers out the requisite distance to delay the back waves the 5ms-10ms necessary for them to image properly.

My listening space is about 8' wide by 12' deep, with my listening position about 7' from the front baffle of my speakers. I currently have the Snell CVs (C5's) that are a large tower, they are about 47" tall by 10.5" wide and roughly 20" deep. Due to space constraints I have them about 8" from the front wall, 6' apart and 7' from my listening position. They weigh over 110 lbs. per unit, so I don't have the ability to move them around much - maybe a couple of inches out and back or some toe-in adjustment, that's about it.

Previously I was considering the Tekton (Double?) Impacts, which I think Ron at NRD reviewed, but one criticism I've heard is that although they image extremely well via their unique design, they do lack a little center image focus. I know myself enough to know that this would drive me nuts in the long run.

So, is there an open baffle design in Danny's bag of tricks that could work in such a claustrophobic environment? I know he makes what he calls a "Studio Monitor". Could this be a solution, placed so close to the wall? I also have a custom built sub that runs dual 12" drivers in a sealed enclosure, so I can work with speakers that are less than full range, if that helps.

Any and all advice is welcome. FYI, I owned most of my equipment BEFORE I moved to NYC, and space was never a problem. Don't let anyone fool you, unless you're a millionaire, NYC kinda sucks.

Also, I am completely comfortable with DIY. I plan to upgrade my preamp to the well received VTA SP14 from Roy Mottram, which is a kit. So soldering, woodworking, etc. are all fine by me.

Again, thanks for your help and suggestions.

Dan

[radarnyc]

Hi Dan - I'm a former NYC dweller and now a suburbanite with open baffle speakers; I'll never go back to boxed speakers for sure! However, given you space considerations, conventional thinking says OB are not a good fit since they "need to be" ("really should be") 3' or 4' off the front wall. For your space, you'd be better off with a small bookshelf speaker maybe with DSP. I'd check out Fluance.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Given your space constraints, you're only real option is the NX-Studio.

It has a sealed woofer with an open tweeter that, thanks to its design, it can easily be placed near walls and still give you the soundstage and imaging you're looking for. Tho the more space you can give it, the better.

Any of the full-OB options, even the smaller the NX-MTM will still require a minimum of 3' from the front wall.

[MasterHiFi]

Hi Dan - I'm a former NYC dweller and now a suburbanite with open baffle speakers; I'll never go back to boxed speakers for sure! However, given you space considerations, conventional thinking says OB are not a good fit since they "need to be" ("really should be") 3' or 4' off the front wall. For your space, you'd be better off with a small bookshelf speaker maybe with DSP. I'd check out Fluance.

Radar,

Thanks! And a shoulder I can cry on. I went in the exact opposite direction, from the Burbs to what I like to call, "The Thick of It". Don't get me wrong, it's a great neighborhood, get along with all of my neighbors. There's. Just. No. Space. I am lucky to have a yard at my disposal, so I've got that going for me... I don't own the yard, though, like I did Upstate.

I'll read up on DSP. Not sure if I'll like it if I can't get my boxes to disappear, but it's a thought. Thanks.

Dan

[MasterHiFi]

Given your space constraints, you're only real option is the NX-Studio.

It has a sealed woofer with an open tweeter that, thanks to its design, it can easily be placed near walls and still give you the soundstage and imaging you're looking for. Tho the more space you can give it, the better.

Any of the full-OB options, even the smaller the NX-MTM will still require a minimum of 3' from the front wall.

Hobbs,

Is that the one with the sloping back baffle? I think I've seen it, but I'm going to check it out. If it's light enough, then maybe I can move them out when I want to do some critical listening and then move them back? That's something I definitely CAN'T do right now, but I'm open to it.

I had a largish bookshelf in the same location in the past and I've literally had people knock them off the stands when they came in the door. That's one reason I put those Snell monoliths there. But with a slimmer speaker I could easily build stands that mimic the speaker dimensions to create a slender - and lighter - tower of sorts.

Thanks for the suggestion, and perhaps a ray of hope...

Dan

[MasterHiFi]

There's like, no information about the NX-Studios on the GRR website. 

I did find this thread, however: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=168181.20

Funny, I was just reading another thread with Sonicjoy in it...

[Hobbsmeerkat]

The site is still a bit of a work in progress, so there's a fair bit of info that needs to be filled in or expanded on.

But for now, build threads are your best options for info.

I'm in the process of building an overkill pair myself, but I'm also building a pair of X-Statiks that are nearly finished, and I'm also about to move soon as well.

Dont be afraid to ask any questions! Esp if there's info you cant find.

[MasterHiFi]

The site is still a bit of a work in progress, so there's a fair bit of info that needs to be filled in or expanded on.

But for now, build threads are your best options for info.

I'm in the process of building an overkill pair myself, but I'm also building a pair of X-Statiks that are nearly finished, and I'm also about to move soon as well.

Dont be afraid to ask any questions! Esp if there's info you cant find.

Hobbs,

Thank you. This is a great community, to be sure. I do have questions. It's getting late here on the East Coast so I don't want to keep people up responding, but I do have to say that your mention of the X-Statiks is incredibly fortuitous. I saw a thumbnail for someone's avatar while I was reading Sonicjoy's build. I clicked in and it was a pair of X-Statiks!

I'm thinking, maybe I could make that work? Looks like a step between the Studio and Otica?

I just did some rough measurements. Since my speakers are approx. 20" deep, plus another 8-10" to the front wall, I'm nearly 3 feet, at least it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to get the baffle to 3'. I could see comfortable going to 3.5' or even 4'.

However, I do have hard boundaries on both sides: I'm about 3.5' on the right side, while the left speaker is about 6" from a bookshelf (pretty well damped). And the bookshelf is up against the wall.

There is absolutely nothing I can do about those side dimensions, but I can get them out at least 3.5-4'.

Is this something that would work with the X-Statiks? It looks like an amazing speaker.]

Again, thanks to all. Glad to be here among you knowledgeable folk!

Dan

[SET Man]

Hey!

   Yeah, not easy being audiophile in NYC for the 99% of us. Space is expensive here and not to mention you are close to others.

   Just curious, are you looking for a new speaker because the Snell don't sound good in your current room now? Or you just want something new?

   Anyway, good to see another here in NYC. I'm here in Queens.

Buddy

[mlundy57]

Dan,

With 3’ from the baffle to the wall you can use the X-Statiks and can also use the NX-Otica MTMs on top of dual open baffle servo servo subs like in my avatar. Since open baffle speakers radiate in a figure eight pattern they have nulls to the sides. This allows them to be close to side walls without the normal refection problems boxed speakers have. The midrange of the X-Statiks have this benefit. Since the bass drivers of the X-Statiks are in a sealed box they will have more sidewall interaction than the OB subs will have.

Another big difference between the X-Statik and NX-Otica MTM / dual OB sub combo is cost. The X-Statiks are hands down the biggest bang for the buck out there. However, if they fit in your budget, the NX-Otica MTM/dual sub combo will give you a full range open baffle speaker that will fill you room with the type of sound you’re looking for.

Mike

[Sonicjoy]

Hello MasterHiFi, The NX-Studio's are wonderful and would likely work good in your small room. However I think Mike is right, the MTM's are true open baffle speakers. You would still want the OB servo subs, most use them as stands for the speakers. One thing to keep in mind is that you have to be careful pumping to much energy into small rooms. You can over load a small room with to much energy and create a boomy mess. Smaller speakers are usually better. And OB speakers and subs do not energize the room the way box speakers do and so solve much of that issue.

If you can get 3' to the baffle then you are good with any OB speaker. OB subs need to be out from the wall as well, so keep that in mind. I think you will be surprised at how much better OB sound will be.

[Chewbacca]

I’d go with Mikes suggestion of the NX-Otica MTM. With your width restraint it’s most likely your best option... from what I hear the OB bass is a total game changer... quite excited myself

[rollo]

  Fellow NYer here. With your room size stand mounts would be a good fit. The Exotica line fits right in. Go for the best crossover parts and be done.


charles

[Opus Flatus]

Also a fellow New Yorker hailing from Brooklyn. I have the Nx Studios and love them. They are best with sub like most stand mount speakers although I listen without to not piss the neighbors off. The room is approx 11 x 14, I listen near-field off the long wall; which is how most NYC appts must be set up. There is much more flexibility in set up with just the tweeter OB and the woofer sealed.
 Using Inspire SET amp and preamp; Cambridge CXN2 (Roon end point); Schiit Sol turntable; and modded SONY XDR F1 tuner.

I did have a pair of GR Wedgies, they must be out at least 36 inches from the front wall and need bottom end reinforcement. Also, the WAF factor was low. Good luck

[mkrawcz]

The NX-Studios may not give you the full open baffle experience, but they still kick the crap out of any retail speaker I have heard under 20k. If you get those and someday, desire more, you can always put the Studios in the bedroom. That’s what I did. 

[paolocaminiti]

One of the good things about OB bass is also that it won't load the room and disturb the neighbors as much as sealed sub, so it's worth looking into replacing your subs.

The choice all comes down to how far you can be from the front wall. If you can nx MTM is what I'm looking at to build myself now.

I suggest you call gr research directly. The man answers calls himself and takes the time and patience to answer all questions, incredibly helpful.

A speaker that deserves mention as one that can be close to a wall is the Linkwitz lx-mini. Altough i suspect it won't be in the same league as the otticas, then never heard one.

[WarmColors]

Hello All,

It is by pure chance that I stumbled onto the GR Research YT channel, and then New Record Day which allowed me to learn what kind of speaker could actually provide the kind of sound that I have been searching for.

The kind of sound is, in order of importance: realistic, focused, "holographic" 3D soundstage, inc. width, height and depth. Fast transients and inner detail. Accurate tone and timber. Convincing dynamics. So, not too picky at all...

FWIW, I worked in high end audio for a number of years, and then again in mid-fi. We were dealers for B&W, Klipsch and Polk, had previously been dealers for ADS, plus electronics such as Krell, Threshold, Forte, Nakamichi, Denon, etc. Even a little bit of the Conrad Johnson line.

I spent years training my ears to the point that I could determine in a blind A-B test if the Tone Control "Defeat" switch was engaged or not on a high quality preamp with the tone controls set to "Flat". Not a brag or a boast, it's honestly kind of a drag and makes the challenge of finding equipment that you can live with all the more difficult, as you end up listening to the flaws instead of the music.

I now understand (thanks Danny and Ron!!) all the benefits of the open baffle design and either the NX-Oticas as well as the very fine Linkwitz LX521s would be tremendous additions to virtually any audio setup.

The problem is my room. I don't really live in a studio, we have four rooms plus a walk-in kitchen. But my listening space does not allow me to bring my speakers out the requisite distance to delay the back waves the 5ms-10ms necessary for them to image properly.

My listening space is about 8' wide by 12' deep, with my listening position about 7' from the front baffle of my speakers. I currently have the Snell CVs (C5's) that are a large tower, they are about 47" tall by 10.5" wide and roughly 20" deep. Due to space constraints I have them about 8" from the front wall, 6' apart and 7' from my listening position. They weigh over 110 lbs. per unit, so I don't have the ability to move them around much - maybe a couple of inches out and back or some toe-in adjustment, that's about it.

Previously I was considering the Tekton (Double?) Impacts, which I think Ron at NRD reviewed, but one criticism I've heard is that although they image extremely well via their unique design, they do lack a little center image focus. I know myself enough to know that this would drive me nuts in the long run.

So, is there an open baffle design in Danny's bag of tricks that could work in such a claustrophobic environment? I know he makes what he calls a "Studio Monitor". Could this be a solution, placed so close to the wall? I also have a custom built sub that runs dual 12" drivers in a sealed enclosure, so I can work with speakers that are less than full range, if that helps.

Any and all advice is welcome. FYI, I owned most of my equipment BEFORE I moved to NYC, and space was never a problem. Don't let anyone fool you, unless you're a millionaire, NYC kinda sucks.

Also, I am completely comfortable with DIY. I plan to upgrade my preamp to the well received VTA SP14 from Roy Mottram, which is a kit. So soldering, woodworking, etc. are all fine by me.

Again, thanks for your help and suggestions.

Dan

So I am not a critical listener what so ever. I regret buying the MDF for the NX Studios. My room is relatively small and I should have stuck to my guns and gone with the MTM or heck even the Oticas.
Yes, I understand it's like buying an exotic sports car and only driving it 25mph the whole time. It is a waste!
But you will make the one time investment and if you take care of your speakers well enough they will be around for many years. Once you are in a situation where you have a bigger room and have the space to move them 3+ feet out from the wall, you wont have to make a second purchase.
That is the issue with DIY kits, resale value is poor and the likely hood of someone purchasing them is low.

Just my opinion.

[MasterHiFi]

Hey!

   Yeah, not easy being audiophile in NYC for the 99% of us. Space is expensive here and not to mention you are close to others.

   Just curious, are you looking for a new speaker because the Snell don't sound good in your current room now? Or you just want something new?

   Anyway, good to see another here in NYC. I'm here in Queens.

Buddy

Hi Buddy,

Good to see another NY'er here - I'm in Brooklyn, but my wife grew up in Forest Hills. I emigrated from upstate (Rochester to be specific, did my time at both Xerox and Kodak before they both took a nose dive).

To answer your question, I really like the Snells. They do a lot of things really well. They were designed by Kevin Voecks, who is now lead designer at Revel (I think). The problem is one I've run up against for years. Even back in the days when I was working in audio, we'd have the B&W 801 Matrix IIs hooked up to monster Krell and Threshold mono blocks (I preferred the Thresholds), and the speakers would image well, but they couldn't/wouldn't create what I call a truly "holographic" soundstage.

Don't get me wrong, they imaged very well, pinpoint positioning of musicians, nice layering, but never a "you're there" feeling. No sense of air between the instruments. You always knew that you were listening to speakers. Plus the inefficient B&Ws crushed the dynamics. We also sold Klipsch and had most of the line on demo, including the K-Horns. I loved the dynamics, but was never a fan of horn loaded drivers. It gave the same effect as cupping your hands around your mouth when you speak. We also sold Polk. I used to drool over the magazine adverts when I was a kid. But in practice, the Polks were just too bright for me.

Now all of those high end products were well out of my price range. I felt very lucky to get the Snells when I did. I also have been a fan of ADS and own several different pairs. But it was after reading about the NHT SuperZeros that things took a turn. I bought a pair for my little PC setup and put my ADS L300s on my wife's computer. I paired the NHTs with a Yamaha servo sub.

Let's just say that the little NHTs were a revelation. Wow! Truly holographic imaging. I'd listened to everything back in the day - the big Maggie's, DQ-10s, Thiel, Vandersteen, etc. I just didn't think that there was anything that could really do what I was looking for. Maggies came the closest, but they were a bear to drive and would bottom out pretty easily. Then the SuperZeros came along and blew my mind. Admittedly, I am listening to them nearfield, before any room reflections. But just the fact that they could do what they do. Now that I've actually heard it, it's what I want in my main system. I realize it's what I've always wanted.

I may be able to get pretty close with the tube preamp that I have my eye on. But after a lot of research, I understand why the open baffle design works. I watched several interviews with Siegfried Linkwitz, and he explains the physics of it. Everything kind of fell into place. (His LX521s https://linkwitzlab.com/LX521/LX521_4.htm  & LXminis https://linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm are also exceptional designs (no affiliation), but they require a separate amp for each driver as well as external active crossovers.)

Maybe with the right front end I can get the Snells to disappear. But with the open baffle, it should work well with virtually any electronics and not be so demanding. I've got some vintage tube gear I'd love to try out, like a Scott 340b receiver, but even with the beefy transformers of this beautiful unit, it's just not enough for the 86db Snells. Plus if I'm honest, I've never heard a box speaker that didn't sound more congested as the volume went up.

I didn't respond to many of the posts yet because I wanted to learn about the different models available, and yesterday was a bust for me (I get migraines) so today I had to catch up on some work. But I was sitting at my desk reading and the station I listen to played Dire Straits "Ride Across the River" right into "The Healer" by John Lee Hooker with Carlos Santana - both superb recordings - and the NHTs just dissolved and the artists were in the room.

BTW, this is a recommendation for everyone on this site: when not listening to my own playlist, I listen almost exclusively to a streaming station called Radio Paradise, or www.radioparadise.com (no affiliation). This is not one of those automated stations. It is curated by the owners, Bill and Rebecca Goldsmith. If you can imagine Beethoven gliding into Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, or Brian Wilson followed by Brian Eno, this is a hint of his highly eclectic programming. Sprinkle in some Miles Davis or John Coltrane with ample doses of Peter Gabriel, David Bowie, lots of blues and plenty of stuff you've never heard before, old and new. They have High Res. streams and even alternative playlists - all with NO COMMERCIALS, entirely listener supported. You can check out their playlist for the last 36 hours (maybe more?) to get an idea if anyone is interested, but I can't show these fine people enough love. They have totally improved my quality of life immeasurably.

Anyway, Buddy, I apologize for the dissertation. This is a problem of mine. I'm too wordy, and no one wants to read all this. And you had such a simple question! What I should have said is that I either want to be able to make the Snells disappear or find a speaker that can. The X-Statiks look impressive, but now I see that there is an NX-Otica MTM to consider, which curiously mirrors the Snells that also have a D'Appolito MTM design. Further down the rabbit hole I go...

Dan

[MasterHiFi]

Dan,

With 3’ from the baffle to the wall you can use the X-Statiks and can also use the NX-Otica MTMs on top of dual open baffle servo servo subs like in my avatar. Since open baffle speakers radiate in a figure eight pattern they have nulls to the sides. This allows them to be close to side walls without the normal refection problems boxed speakers have. The midrange of the X-Statiks have this benefit. Since the bass drivers of the X-Statiks are in a sealed box they will have more sidewall interaction than the OB subs will have.

Another big difference between the X-Statik and NX-Otica MTM / dual OB sub combo is cost. The X-Statiks are hands down the biggest bang for the buck out there. However, if they fit in your budget, the NX-Otica MTM/dual sub combo will give you a full range open baffle speaker that will fill you room with the type of sound you’re looking for.

Mike

Mike,

THANK YOU FOR THIS! I forgot about the nulls on the sides. S. Linkwitz explained this in one of his lectures - Cardiod radiation pattern (having nightmares from my Calc. classes 30 years ago).

This is a huge relief. I read through a thread about the Otica MTM. It appears that the woofers are of higher quality just visually, but would you say that the biggest advantage is the quality of the tweeter used - discounting bass for a moment?

The X-Statik also looks to be MTM, so driver quality I'd guess is the major difference aside from sealed vs. OB bass, or perhaps the tweeter also leads to higher freq. extension? (Sorry, none of the graphs are loading on Danny's site.)

One other question if you don't mind. The frames of the subs are pretty large. I read somewhere about some 8" OB subs but don't see them listed anywhere. Are these something that can be made instead of the larger subs that might fit more easily in the same space? I don't mind using my dual 12s to cover <30Hz, but I imagine that even 8" servo subs are impressive.

Thanks,
Dan

[jlucas]

Dan,  I’ve had the small room conversation with Danny already by phone.  NX Studio with a 2 driver open baffle servo sub was the answer. In my case the sub will be be centrally located, which is ok with the NX Studios but not with a full open baffle MTM.  Most of the pieces are here, I am excited about getting started building them.