[tbrooke]

I have a pair of RM-30s that I do like but I've been looking around as I'm doing some renovation to my Home Theater.

I think I could easily sell them but I don't want to deal with the hassle of shipping them and frankly I haven't found anything that l think would sound that much better at a price below $5,000 or so.

I just thought I'd throw out some thoughts and obesrvations and see what folks think:

1. Wave guides - I have the wave guides with the long narrow slots - They look way cool - I took the speakers to a friend that builds speakers and he measured them and told me that the wave guides were a disaster - I like them a lot better with the wave guides than without - if I dropped them I think I would have to redo the crossover. Any thoughts? Do folks with RM-30 like the wave guides? Anyone have them without?

2. Crossover - I have the external crossover and I played  Behringer 2496 in the past - I tried the active but never really liked it so I went back to the original crossovers -- Now with Mini DSP I am thinking I could do a lot better with creating an active system -- Anyone tried this? What are the curves? Can I do this and dop the wave giudes? or keep the wave guides

3. I somehow messed up the ribbons on my tweeters and tried replacing the ribbons from Parts Express but they don't seem to be in quite right and I noticed a large high frequency dropoff when I am measuring with DIRAC -- I found the Aurum Cantus G2Si for a great price at Price Express - Am I correct in thinking that this is a drop in replacement?

4. I have not done the mod of removing the side readiator and I'm not sure it is worth it - I did blow out the bottom radiators and replaced them.  Should I add the side radiator replacement to the mix.

[rbbert]

Speaking only to the wave guides:  Brian's second attempt (smaller flare-shaped guides for each speaker) worked a lot better than the long narrow ones.  John Casler can probably give you instructions for how to make them if you like what the wave guides do (I did, many don't)

[Bob Stark]

I did the passive radiator on the sides while removing the side woofer and plugging the bottom holes.  It was a lot of work and you may need several clamps.  The thin rim to secure the passives with was TOO THIN.  I had to add a piece of 3/4" plywood or MDF cut in half so I could fit the pieces into the bottom enclosure.  I then glued the 2 pieces to the inside of the cabinet and clamped them with 8 clamps to make sure they were secure.  The sealing up of the original passives with glue was pretty easy.  If you have a thicker wall than mine were, you may not need to add the extra wood to secure the new passive with. 

As for the sound, I had the Auricaps and the bass was significantly better and more potent than before when finished.  I sold that pair as I had a chance to get a really special pair of RM40's BCSE w/ MLS cabinets and book matched rosewood cabinets.  I still have them and most of the rest of my system has gone through several changes.  I didn't prefer the speaker with the wave guides.  My room is wider than long--20'W x 17'L.  YMMV.

[Doug Ravizza]

Speaking only to the wave guides:  Brian's second attempt (smaller flare-shaped guides for each speaker) worked a lot better than the long narrow ones.  John Casler can probably give you instructions for how to make them if you like what the wave guides do (I did, many don't)

Here are the sketches I made from measurements of the CDWGs that came on my RM30 Series II. I drew them so that my son could fabricate a set to replace his "speaker grill" type wave guides that came with his RM30s. They are mounted with the foam side facing the driver. My son was very pleased with the results.

Hope this helps,
-Doug

[tbrooke]

Wow

Are there pictures of CDWGs ?  - I couldn't find anything on line

What is the material other than foam, and

How do you make them?

Maybe 3d printing?

[Doublej]

Duck Duck Go vmps loudspeaker cdwg and look for the images with the long slits in the center of the speaker and the round holes. That is the CDWG mounted like a grill. 

[ZAKski288]

Here is a link:

http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/news.htm




Bulk Fine Foam Filter 60 PPI 12x16x3/8in Uni BF-4.   This is the foam I’ve used, but I see it out of stock. I’ve used the black abs plastic, which is textured on one side. Good luck

[tbrooke]

Found One

[tbrooke]

@Zakski288  We found it at the same time - I found some foam not sure about the 1/8th acryllic - then I would assume use a standard stretched fabric for the grill  -- Hate to loose that cool slotted cover - it just diodn't sound right with them off -- too forward or something  -- maybe this will be the answer

[ZAKski288]

Abs sheet link, I sure you can most likely buy locally. Good luck.

https://www.amazon.com/Install-Bay-89-00-9031-Plastic-8-Inch/dp/B0007WTF02/ref=pd_sbs_4?pd_rd_w=ycLSw&pf_rd_p=2419a049-62bf-452e-b0d0-ca5b7e35a7b4&pf_rd_r=8ZB2CT2YADTYVE1HHBPH&pd_rd_r=3874c0ec-f840-4fe2-bdaf-f3c072d65515&pd_rd_wg=qVVi9&pd_rd_i=B0007WTF02&psc=1

[GeorgeAb]

I precursor this response with “in my opinion” and my experience and your mileage may vary. 

Wave Guides: The idea of the wave guide was to improve off axis response. Since I have never had any issues with off axis response (I do not sit off axis), I have never used. Only positive I have heard from users is looks. I assume the latest style of wave guide is a huge improvement over original as you are not having sound bounce against a solid object (back of wave guide) and reflect back into planar. I would only use if you have a need for off axis improvement. Wave guides and crossovers are apples and oranges as a crossover will have no effect on off axis response. 
   
Crossover: Nothing wrong with passive crossovers, particularly if you utilize decent components which Brian did. Yes, there are benefits to going active, but it needs to be done properly. For me using Behringer 2496 was not a solution I could live with. Likely psychological, but for me it was like putting a low end CD player between my DAC and my amplification. The Behringer 2496 is a great tool to dial in the crossover points for my speakers and room, and then used those measurements to get a proper active crossover. I used a Marchand Electronic active crossover and am quite happy with. There are a few posts on crossover points on going active or 2496. Things do get a complicated quickly with all the amplifiers, so there is something to be said for the simplicity of a passive crossover which have been used in excellent sounding high end speakers including your RM-30’s to great effect.

Ribbons: Yes, the G2Si is a direct replacement. That said, replacing a blown ribbon is a doable do and should bring them back to original specs. It is important to get proper tension; taught, but not tight. There is the last crease that should be even with the end of the metal. The ribbon distance between ribbon and metal edge should be as equal as possible on both sides.   
 
Series II upgrade: I think you are talking about the series II upgrade when you state “mod of removing the side radiator”.  The series II is removing the two passive 6” speakers and covering holes, removing active 10” side firing speaker and replacing with 10” passive speaker, wiring 6.5” speakers in parallel (vice series and parallel with 10” in non-series 2), and adding a 10uF capacitor in parallel to midrange crossover. From a speaker design standpoint the series II makes sense of having a 10” passive working with the two 6.5” active speakers as opposed to two 6” passive speakers having to work against a 10” and two 6.5” active speakers. Hmm, is it worth it? It is a bit of work. What I found was less bass, but the bass was more tuneful and tight. With my non series 2 RM-30’s I never had a desire for a sub woofer, but after doing the upgrade I did go with a subwoofer so that should tell you something. Lastly, it is not like the bass was sloppy on the non Series II RM-30s.

So to answer your question about upgrading or selling your Rm-30's. I would have to respond by asking what area are you trying to get better performance and in what areas are the RM-30's not performing? My only real issue with the RM-30 is at super high SPL in a decent sized room with complex music the sound would fall apart due to panels having to work beyond their capabilities. Upgrades will provide subtle improvements around the edges, but the VMPS house sound will be unchanged.

If you sell, I do no think you need to worry too much about shipping. I sold my RM-30's in a day or two.  An AC member drove a couple hundred miles each way to pick them up. I drove 2,400 RT to get their replacements a pair of RM-V60s. If you have the itch, I would purchase the speakers you intend to replace before selling the RM-30s. It will give you perspective on both speakers.

[tbrooke]

Thanks @GeorgAb

Good insights

[Charles Calkins]

      IMHO rebuilding and upgradeing The RM-30 speakers is like finding a 1940 Plymouth and putting back to original condition.
      Both projects will cost. a lot of$$$$$$$$$$$$. Big pain in the ASS. Buy new speakers or not too old used speakers.
      Good luck on your project I hope everything goes easy and not a BIG PAIN in the ASS

[tbrooke]

Actually the 1940 Plymouth analogy made me think that if I got new speakers I would just hook them up and listen to them - But I started with VMPS 626 in 1993 then added 626R then RM-30 in 2007 - I worked with John Casler on most of my purchases - spoke with Brian several times and picked up a few replacement parts, switched to a Behringer 2496 for awhile with the RM-30s and switched back. I've been tweaking them for years.

After wavering some I am thinking why stop now - I replaced my almost 30 year old VMPS center channel with a new highly rated center and it doesn't really blend with my RM-30s which is not good but if my whole system sounds like my new center it would be more detailed and clearer - but still not as good as I already have -- Maybe a 1940 Plymouth is better than what they are making now and I could save about $10,000.00 to use on fiddling with my RM-30s

[Bob Stark]

@tbrooke,

I agree with most of GeorgeAb's post on the effects of doing the various procedures to the RM30's.  But, you don't have to do anything to the crossover when you do the RM30 II upgrade to the passive radiator.  Do all the rest to this upgrade except that one part.  It is THE reason George got LESS bass and it didn't have any worthwhile change for all the work changing to the 10" PR from the two 6" ones.  Brian told me just how to do this prior to his passing.  The end result of doing the work was the bass was significantly stronger, deeper, and more dynamic than the original design.  I don't think you can get the same 10" PR Brian sent me, but John Casler should be able to tell you where some have bought new ones that were even better sounding and more rugged than the PR I was sent by Brian.  My pair that someone sold me for quite cheap because they had a couple cosmetic issues.  They were pretty easy to fix the issues so they looked much better, became even better sounding speakers after the RM30 II upgrade.  I sold them to a guy in Wisconsin for double what I paid for them after doing the RM30 II upgrade as I described.  I had a person near me want them also, but decided to keep his and look for a different pair of speakers.  He had Totem small floor standers and he thought the bass of the VMPS, along with the excellent detail were considerably better than the Totems.  But he really likes a more mellow sound as he does have an ear problem he has to deal with.  The overall sound off the RM30 II's are better because of the bass change making a more balanced top to bottom sound that can play louder without breaking up on deep bass transients.  The lower midrange has more meat on the bones sound in addition when you're done.  It would be well worth the effort to do the upgrade, especially if you already like the sound now.  John's number is:  810-446-0138.  See what he says about obtaining a new 10" PR that is a drop-in replacement or doable with more effort.  I was a VMPS demonstrator for the Chicago area the last 5 years that VMPS was still in business because I loved the house sound of the RM series speakers.  After now listening to several highly regarded speakers in my system, I still do.

Bob

[tbrooke]

@Bob Stark

Thanks -- I am thinking I will go for it

I blew out 2 of my 6.5 passive radiators and replaced them with some that @GeorgeAB sent me - I still have 2 spare - I blew them out with Dirac test tones and not music but I am paranoid that they will blow again even though I have 2 spares

I have the materials for the CDWG but I haven't done it yet - I am thinking I can fit them under my slotted front covers - since the covers look cool and I can remove them for listening  - Thank you Doug Ravizza for the drawings

The mod also requires plugging the holes where the PRs were - Does anyone have a picture? -- Is it a circular piece of MDF the size of the hole? I assume you can't just add a board there since it might mess with the volume of the box.

I have emailed John about the PR and will try texting if I don't hear anything - I did find 2 10 inch PR's at Parts Express, not sure which would be best - or if either would work --

Of course if anyone has a kit laying around that would be great but otherwise everything seems doable.

By not changing the capacitor I assume that means some wiring has to change but you don't have to add the capacitor - Is that right?

[Jstower]

Here is a link for the 10” passive

https://www.css-audio.com/online-store/CSS-APR10-10-Passive-Radiator-p148179575

If you do have the 10” side woofer in your RM30’s, then you have to add the 10uF capacitor to crossover.

tbrooke I would read both links before you attempt anything.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99305.0

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137131.0

[Bob Stark]

@tbrooke,

Does the 10" cover on the side of your speakers actually have the 10" woofer now or is it just a cover if you wanted to do the woofer at a later time or add the PR?  The one I had only had a decorative cover so you didn't see the 10" hole.  As the next Jstower posted, IF you have the 10" woofer IN the speaker already, THEN you will need to use the capacitor.  As for the 6" PR's, just remove them and cut a piece of 1/2" MDF to fit UNDER the holes making sure it covers the entire hole--it can be a square piece that fits in the space and is bigger than the hole.  Use Gorilla glue or some other very good holding glue to fasten the board to actual wood the hole has been cut into.  Predrill and add 1 1/4" drywall screws at 4 spots to hold it on while it dries.  Just leave them in afterwards.  Do the same thing with all 4 spots to enclose.  You don't have to open the cabinet up if you do this that way.  You will need to take off the bottom riser that allows the speaker to be 4" higher to do this, however.  If the 10" PR's are not the same hole pattern, predrill holes, and use short enough screws that they don't protrude into the cabinet.  If they do, just be VERY CAREFUL if you ever have to stick your hand into the speaker to do something someday.  Be sure to center the new PR so the cover will fit back on afterwards.  It's a snug fit.  My covers were difficult to remove without putting a hole in them to get a grip.  There should be enough flexibility in the cloth that you can use your fingers inside the cover rim to get enough grip to lift them out.  May have to loosen up each area first to do so.  Mine were hot glued in place when I tried to do this.  It's probably going to be a 4 hour or so project if you don't have to add a 3/4" piece of MDF to the inside to give you more wood to screw the PR's into.  That will require glueing and clamping in many spots.  Your time will be much longer if this is needed. 

Let me know if you need more assistance.
Bob

[tbrooke]

I tried with the covers over the 10 inchers and could not budge them even by stretching the cloth and gettin my finger under the rim - I may end up tearing and replacing the cloth -- I didn't really push it too far-- strange because my front 6 inch covers keep falling off. I could feel a driver in there so I assume I have the speaker in there

I found a DynamiCap by TRT Capacitor 10.0uF 310Vdc Electronic at https://www.partsconnexion.com/DYNACAP-64040.html but the price ($89.90) makes me think I could find somthing cheaper or go with a miniDSP and make it active - I have the OXO and actually modified it some so I have a switch to Bi-Amp with the Behringer 2496 - Brian's digilog idea -  I never quite liked it and it was messy working with the Behringer but I am thinking I could do better with minDSP and maybe even go 3 way active

[GeorgeAb]

@Bob Stark

Thanks -- I am thinking I will go for it

I blew out 2 of my 6.5 passive radiators and replaced them with some that @GeorgeAB sent me - I still have 2 spare - I blew them out with Dirac test tones and not music but I am paranoid that they will blow again even though I have 2 spares

I have the materials for the CDWG but I haven't done it yet - I am thinking I can fit them under my slotted front covers - since the covers look cool and I can remove them for listening  - Thank you Doug Ravizza for the drawings

The mod also requires plugging the holes where the PRs were - Does anyone have a picture? -- Is it a circular piece of MDF the size of the hole? I assume you can't just add a board there since it might mess with the volume of the box.

I have emailed John about the PR and will try texting if I don't hear anything - I did find 2 10 inch PR's at Parts Express, not sure which would be best - or if either would work --

Of course if anyone has a kit laying around that would be great but otherwise everything seems doable.

By not changing the capacitor I assume that means some wiring has to change but you don't have to add the capacitor - Is that right?

Just to add to the excellent info provided. When I did the Series II conversion, I found G E's VMPS RM30 M to Series II Upgrade Project post provided excellent guidance. It is thorough and complete with pictures.   https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137131.0 

On plugging holes, I just cut a couple pieces of plywood to size, painted black (not sure why as no one can seen them) put down some wood glued and screwed down. I then used clear RTV between edge of plywood and cabinet to enure proper seal. G E has some good pictures on how he did it.

On removing the 10" side cover, yes the first time is a B. For me the problem is there is nothing to grab onto as it is near flush with cabinet. If you have a pick you can jab that into the wood rim at a 45° angle, from there pull out. If more force is needed, put something on the surface of the speaker so it doesn't get marred, wedge out. Once it starts to move go to another spot, repeat. 

Selling your 10" side firing speakers should pay for the entire project with cash leftover. An RM-40 owner will snap up for spares.