[dawkimi]

Hi guys.  Let me start out by saying I think this site is an awesome resource!  I am relocating with my job and building a new house.  The first draft of the plans will probably be finished over the next two weeks.  The house will have three levels (basement, first and second levels) of approximately 1,600 square feet each (4,800 total).  The hot water, stove and dryer will run on gas.  My dedicated two channel listening room will be over the garage on the second level (approximately 17' x 17').  I will eventually finish the basement with a dedicated home theater (potentially 25' x 25').  I have already requested an upgrade on my amperage service from 200 to 300 amps.  I will also be able to designate dedicated outlets and increase amperage if desired during my electrical walkthrough after framing is completed.  Any recommendations or suggestions would be greatly appreciated concerning number of dedicated outlets, amperage service, special wiring/grounding materials or procedures, etc.  Thanks for your time and assistance.

[jcoat007]

I upped the service to my house from 200 to 300 amps as well.  Good move.

I also added 4 dedicated 20 amp circuits.  I use 2 circuits in my 2 channel room, and 2 circuits in my HT room.  I have 2 outlets running out of each circuit so there can basically be 4 pieces of equipment on each circuit.  

If I had to do it over again I would have doubled the number of dedicated circuits and outlets, but I cannot go back now.

The other thing to think about is pre-wiring for surround.  I have both rooms totally pre-wired so I could put an HT in either location.  This might be helpful down the road or for future owners.  

One last thing, if you use recessed lights at all, do not get your surround wiring to close to those.  I have a buzzing in my rear speakers whenever the lights in the kitchen are on.  Something is too close somewhere.

[JLM]

A few more ideas:

1.  Use a separate, but common ground to each set of electrical receptacles. IMO if you use a power conditioner the number of receptacles won't be an issue.

2.  Use good quality receptacles.

3.  Use lined fiberglass ductwork (versus galvanized that transmits furnance, wind noise).

4.  Use insulated exterior door with weather seals.

5.  Avoid dimmer switches on lights (add noise).

6.  Minimize the number/size of windows in both rooms.

7.  Use vertical black out shades for the HT room.

8.  Paint the HT room a dark grey to minimize room reflectance.

9.  Reduce room widths to avoid duplication of standing waves from more than one set of walls.  One of the ideal ratios of room height to width to length is 1 x 1.612 x 2.612.  If your rooms have 8 ft ceilings they're both at nearly the worst possible dimensions, with room ratios of nearly 1 x 2 x 2 and 1 x 3 x 3.  (The worst possible is 1 x 1 x 1.)

10.  Plan on acoustical room treatments at wall/wall and wall/ceiling intersections and at first reflection points (where you'd be able to see each speaker from your listening position if a mirror were to be located at various points on the wall or ceiling).

[warnerwh]

I'll second that your dimensions for your listening room need to be modified. A square room is bad as the room modes will be amplified and unamplified room modes are bad enough.  Treat the room acoustically especially with bass traps and get ready for the best sound you have heard.  I'm not kidding.

[Ulas]

Dawkimi, here’s what I did for my 3000+ sqft house:
200 amp service with power supplied by my own transformer just outside the service entrance.
Whole-house surge protection and professionally designed and installed lightning suppression system. This includes numerous spikes on the roof and rods and plates buried around the house. Everything electrical is tied into this massive ground system. The result is a very quiet electrical environment. It also helps that I am in the middle of nowhere with no environmental RFI/EMI.
One 20-amp dedicated 120v AC line for 2-channel audio with a single Equi=Tech 2RQ. I tried three AC lines with three balanced transformers but I preferred the single: more coherent.

[DVV]

What exactly do you people have when you need 20 amp lines, even if it's "only" the US nominal 117 VAC? At 20 amps, this is around 2.34 kVA.

I am baffled because everybody is talking about very high power dedicated lines as if that was an answer looking for a question.

Shouldn't you be far more concerned with your ground, which is supposed to have a potential of 0.8V or less and an impedance of 100 ohms or less? These are basic assumption for it to work as it should, yet these vary basic requirements are not met anywhere I know of.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Dawkimi, here’s what I did for my 3000+ sqft house:
200 amp service with power supplied by my own transformer just outside the service entrance.
Whole-house surge protection and professionally designed and installed lightning suppression system. This includes numerous spikes on the roof and rods and plates buried around the house. Everything electrical is tied into this massive ground system. The result is a very quiet electrical environment. It also helps that I am in the middle of nowhere with no enviro ...

Why are you so sure of that? No doubt you are in a better situation than an urban dweller, but "quiet"? I wouldn't be so sure.

If you already haven't, do try connecting an oscilloscope to your mains socket from which you draw power for your audio. Sweep from 60 Hz to 80 kHz - I think you'll be shocked at how "quiet" your environment is, but bear in mind, in urban areas, it's even worse. Often far worse.

What is all too often forgotten is that noise and pollution travel along with the power from the generating source onwards. And noise does not diminish with distance, although it changes in form somewhat.

The point being that no matter what you do, without a power line filter ("conditioner" my, er, sitting region) there is no getting rid of the noise and pollution. Installing a 20 amp socket only opens the door wider to the noise, although it does present a lower source impedance to the electrinics plugged into it.

Which, by the way, also introduce line pollution all by themselves and send it back into the other components on the same line. To the best of my knowledge, the only way to tackle that is to use parallel filter sections. So, it's not just any power line filter, since most don't do this, they bundle it all together.

Cheers,
DVV

[Ulas]

Why are you so sure of that? No doubt you are in a better situation than an urban dweller, but "quiet"? I wouldn't be so sure.

If you already haven't, do try connecting an oscilloscope to your mains socket from which you draw power for your audio. Sweep from 60 Hz to 80 kHz - I think you'll be shocked at how "quiet" your environment is, but bear in mind, in urban areas, it's even worse. Often far worse.

FYI, I have looked at my AC power with an oscilloscope and it is dead quite. The only anomaly is some harmonic distortion, mostly second harmonic, but there is no "hair" or spikes.

The reason for 20A lines is that it implies heavier gauge wiring which means lower impedence.

[DVV]

FYI, I have looked at my AC power with an oscilloscope and it is dead quite. The only anomaly is some harmonic distortion, mostly second harmonic, but there is no "hair" or spikes.

This is the first time in my life to hear (read) somebody saying that. Consider yourself outstandingly lucky; I wish I could say the same.

The reason for 20A lines is that it implies heavier gauge wiring which means lower impedence.

While this is important, and while I already have it (since European voltages are slowly but surely all melting into a big 230 VAC pot, has 220 VAC until recently), perhaps you should tackle the problem from the other side (assuming you are into DIY). This means buying a high quality, high input impedance power transformer. Can't fail, but is not cheap.

Cheers,
DVV

[Ulas]

This is the first time in my life to hear (read) somebody saying that. Consider yourself outstandingly lucky; I wish I could say the same.

Yes, I'm lucky to have clean AC power but it is unreliable with frequent outages due to rain, snow, and lightning. For that I have a propane-fired standby generator. There is no free lunch.

...perhaps you should tackle the problem from the other side (assuming you are into DIY). This means buying a high quality, high input impedance power transformer. Can't fail, but is not cheap.

As I already have a 2KVA balanced power transformer, what problem will an additional transformer solve?

[DVV]

As I already have a 2KVA balanced power transformer, what problem will an additional transformer solve?

Well, it will do its thing regarding power from the wall socket. But it will do nothing about kickback pollution from your components connected after it, and they will freely exchange that. With parallel filters, this would not be able to happen. This can be a small or a not so small problem depending on the quality and type of your components' power supplies, so there's no ready-made answer to the question do you need it or not.

You could do the same trick by isolating the power amplification from the rest, because that's the prime source of pollution, being the greatest power consumer. But evolving that each component would entail a lot of transformers, I expect.

Cheers,
DVV

[Ulas]

You could do the same trick by isolating the power amplification from the rest, because that's the prime source of pollution, being the greatest power consumer.

You are offering solutions to problems I don’t have. I already explained that I tried segregating my amps, digital sources, and analog front-end with independent AC lines and balanced power transformers, a configuration that offers substantially more isolation then the simple filters you propose, and I rejected that approach as inferior to the single AC line and balanced power transformer I use now.

With an oscilloscope, I have looked at the power at each and every AC socket while the system was turned on. The only “kick-back pollution” from the amps is a small notch in the leading edge of the sine wave that probably corresponds to the rectifiers turning on for each half-cycle. I doubt a simple filter or additional transformer could eliminate the notch. Besides, if my amps are “polluting” the power it must be a “beneficial pollution.”

The Equi=Tech transformer I use provides additional filtering for an independent bank of outlets. My digital and ancillary components are plugged into such filtered outlets. Theoretically, that will reduce the “kickback pollution” from the digital components although I can’t hear any difference when the digital gear is plugged into non-filtered outlets.

Perhaps I am one-in-a-million who doesn’t suffer from AC power problems and who’s components don’t generate or suffer from “kick-back pollution.” Perhaps the power problems you pretend to fix with your one-size-fits-all solution are not as common as you claim. Perhaps many audiophiles, who follow the preaching of audio forum gurus, are wasting their money buying solutions to problems that don’t exist.

I am finished with this discussion. It is of no value to me and I doubt it has much value for others.

[brj]

Actually, I've been finding it quite informative myself...

Ulas, if we could coax a bit more information out of you, I'd be interested to know how your chose your "whole-house surge protection" unit.  I've known people to add these to a new house for protection reasons, but have not heard much about their ability to clean up the incoming power.  Do the offerings from different companies differ greatly?  What were you looking for, and what did you end up with?

Thanks!

[Ulas]

brj, when my electrician asked me if I wanted whole-house surge suppression I said “Sure, why not.” It didn’t cost very much to add. I live in a high lightning area and since I already had a full lightning suppression system in the plans I figured whole-house surge suppression should be part of the comprehensive electrical protection package. I have a surge suppression box at the main breaker panel and at the fuse box in the well house. I also have individual surge suppression boxes for each electronic component in the house. Lightning is a serious concern. Every year many people are killed by lightning while standing in their kitchens where there are many conductive pathways.

Surge suppression devices do one and only one thing: Suppress or shunt power surges. They don’t “condition” and they don’t “filter” incoming power.

[JCC]

Cooper Industries makes two whole house units - one from Cooper Wiring Devices and the other from Cooper Power Systems. I had one installed in my house last year. They work very well, with no discernible audio degradation.

They are relatively inexpensive, and a great way to protect your system.

JCC

[DVV]

Ulas writes:

Perhaps I am one-in-a-million who doesn’t suffer from AC power problems and who’s components don’t generate or suffer from “kick-back pollution.” Perhaps the power problems you pretend to fix with your one-size-fits-all solution are not as common as you claim. Perhaps many audiophiles, who follow the preaching of audio forum gurus, are wasting their money buying solutions to problems that don’t exist.

I am finished with this discussion. It is of no value to me and I doubt it has much value for others.

Don't you think this insulting?

You know which filter I propose, even if I said nary a word about what I'd use?

You assume I pretend to solve problems which do not exist?

You know I have a one-size-fits-all solution?

But you say perhaps to thousands of people actually buying (gasp!) power line filters and finding them anything from beneficial to extremely beneficial?

They should be glad you give them the benefit of doubt.

Too bad you never noticed that there are more people here than you and I, and some might actually learn something. Like judging for themselves about a person who says I don't have this problem, therefore it doesn't exist, and the rest of the world is being hoodwinked by gurus (whoever they may be), the suckers.

The only quite true statement is your last sentence, assuming your monologue can be taken for a discussion, because you simply exclude all but your own solution. Be that as it may, there is truly no point talking to one incapable of assuming differences from his own self.

Period.

DVV

[Pocketchange]

Zero Surge, Surge X and a few others sell SPDs that have the top rating.
They have AC line conditioners included.

UL 1449 on a surge device doesn't mean much if the rating isn't included.
UL 1440 1-1-A is the top rating.