[ccpeabody]

Head scratcher...

New speakers today.  Out with the Kef 104/2 and in with the Gershman Grand Avant Garde.

I'm running a Primaluna Tube Preamp into a Bryston 14B3.  I would think, at 600W per channel into 8 ohms and over 900W into 4 ohms that I should be reaching ear splitting volumes with little movement of the preamp dial, much like I have with several other speakers, but not so with the Gershman's.  They sound very good but they just seem to be putting an incredible strain on the Bryston.

I use the front two channels, driven by the Bryston in conjunction with five others driven by a Simaudio Aurora HT Amplifier.  When using the Pre/Pro to adjust speaker trim, with the Gershman/Bryston volume at +10 and the Simaudio/HT speakers set at -10, I can still not get enough juice out of the Bryston/Gershman combo to blend properly.

I plan to call Gershman in the morning but thought I would post here just in case someone has heard of this before.

I have several other amplifiers I could try but as mentioned, 600W at 8 ohms and over 900W at 4 ohms, I would think the Bryston should be able to really make the Gershman's sing.

Appreciate any thoughts.

Ps... I've checked phasing and it is correct.  I'm running balanced and have tried switching the gain to 29db on the back of the Bryston but it had little effect.

Specs for reference:

Frequency Response: 22 Hz to 20 kHz
Sensitivity: 89dB/W/m
Recommended Power: 40 to 200 watts
Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms

[sunnydaze]

I know nothing of your gear, but it's hard to believe.  I can't think of a single speaker where 600wpc is insufficient.   If it exists I sure wouldn't own it!         

I seriously doubt it's a power shortage, you must have a problem elsewhere.  I'd bet on it.  Good luck sorting it out.

[ccpeabody]

I know nothing of your gear, but it's hard to believe.  I can't think of a single speaker where 600wpc is insufficient.   If it exists I sure wouldn't own it!         

I seriously doubt it's a power shortage, you must have a problem elsewhere.  I'd bet on it.  Good luck sorting it out.

100% agree.  It must be something silly I'm missing.

Hitting the sack.  Perhaps fresh eyes in the am will yield the solution?

Cheers!

[ccpeabody]

After speaking with Gershman today, there is a chance that the speakers are just that power hungry.  I currently have them bi-amped and they are opening up much more.

I'll do some more experimenting but it may be an upgrade to the 28B3's 

[James Tanner]

After speaking with Gershman today, there is a chance that the speakers are just that power hungry.  I currently have them bi-amped and they are opening up much more.

I'll do some more experimenting but it may be an upgrade to the 28B3's 

HI

The stated 89 dB seems to be very reasonable efficiency?

james

[Don_S]

Head scratcher...

New speakers today.  Out with the Kef 104/2 and in with the Gershman Grand Avant Garde.

Are the speakers brand new? Frequently brand new drivers need some time to "relax".

[mscetal]

Ok, I may be off the mark, so forgive me if I am.  The webpage I saw said the Gershman's are 87dB, but it doesn't say if that is based on 2.83V or 1W.  The other thing they don't mention is the impedance for this speaker (not that I could find quickly).  And the Bryston you have ( I also have a Bryston tho only a 4BSST) I think gets its power from bridging 2 amps to get the high output of 600/900, but an amp that bridges doesn't do low impedance speakers as well.  What I am suggesting is that perhaps the Gershman is a low impedance and and the power from your Bryston is not able to drive a low impedance as well.

Again, this is my speculation and I mean no disrespect to your equipment, just that perhaps that is the source of the mismatch.

[James Tanner]

Ok, I may be off the mark, so forgive me if I am.  The webpage I saw said the Gershman's are 87dB, but it doesn't say if that is based on 2.83V or 1W.  The other thing they don't mention is the impedance for this speaker (not that I could find quickly).  And the Bryston you have ( I also have a Bryston tho only a 4BSST) I think gets its power from bridging 2 amps to get the high output of 600/900, but an amp that bridges doesn't do low impedance speakers as well.  What I am suggesting is that perhaps the Gershman is a low impedance and and the power from your Bryston is not able to drive a low impedance as well.

Again, this is my speculation and I mean no disrespect to your equipment, just that perhaps that is the source of the mismatch.

Hi

The 14B would not have any issue down to 2 ohms.

james

[sunnydaze]

I'm sorry, but there's just no way that your Bryston amp -- or any Bryston amp for that matter -- can't drive this speaker.

This reviewer says he used a 125wpc Music Reference tube amp (I'm guessing the RM-9 Mk2) and he detected no strain whatsoever as loud as he cared to listen.  He also states that the spkr mfr recommends 40 to 200wpc, and he suspects any decent 40 watt amp would suffice.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0915/Gershman_Acoustics_Grande_Avant_Garde_Loudspeakers_Review.htm

In my journeys I've heard several pair of Gershman speakers, none of them driven with anything near as stout as your Bryston.  And they all sounded great.

IMHO, you are barking up the wrong tree in trying to explain your problem as some sort of Bryston / Gershman power or impedance mismatch.  It almost sounds like something is grossly amiss in your setup.  Maybe something hooked up wrong, or perhaps a piece of gear in the chain is damaged or malfunctioning.

The other possibility is you have insufficient overall gain in the Bryston / Gershman channels. I say this because you say your other channels are blasting and Gershmans can barely keep up. 

Or possibly an impedance mismatch between your PL preamp and Bryston amp.  Is the ratio at least 10X?  (even higher is better)

I must confess, I'm a little confused about your setup....... Not sure what you mean by "using pre/pro to adjust speaker trim"     

Is this piece of gear in the chain with Bryston / Gershmans?  Are you running multiple channels, including Gershmans?
If so,  maybe all this extra gear is the problem?   I would take out all extra gear -- proceesor, other amps / speakers -- and set things up as a simple 2 channel rig thusly:
 
       source >>>>> PrimaLuna preamp >>>>>>Bryston amp >>>>>>Gershmans

If all gear is working properly I'd be seriously shocked if this didn't kick some serious ass.  If the problem returns when you add in the extra channels, then there's your problem.

Have you tried Gershmans with other amps?

Have you tried Bryston with other speakers?

These steps will help you to logically deduce where the problem lies.

[mscetal]

I think Sunnydaze has the right idea.  Start with a simple set up and make sure that is working properly and then add in from there.

[ccpeabody]

Yes, excellent idea and it was the first thing I tried.

I've spoke to Gershman Acoustics at length today and while they think they are working properly, they have graciously agreed to take them back and give them a complete physical.

Appreciate your comment!

[kgturner]

Something sounds off to me. I had a pair of the Avant Garde RX-20 speakers years ago and could drive them to deafening levels with a pair of Aragon Palladium II monoblocks (400 watts). I even got decent volume with a pair of AES SixPacs (50 watts) and an Art Audio Carissa SET (16 watts). I can't envision many scenarios where your Bryston could not drive you out of the room unless your room is a cavern.

Kevin T

[ccpeabody]

I'm sorry, but there's just no way that your Bryston amp -- or any Bryston amp for that matter -- can't drive this speaker.

This reviewer says he used a 125wpc Music Reference tube amp (I'm guessing the RM-9 Mk2) and he detected no strain whatsoever as loud as he cared to listen.  He also states that the spkr mfr recommends 40 to 200wpc, and he suspects any decent 40 watt amp would suffice.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0915/Gershman_Acoustics_Grande_Avant_Garde_Loudspeakers_Review.htm

In my journeys I've heard several pair of Gershman speakers, none of them driven with anything near as stout as your Bryston.  And they all sounded great.

IMHO, you are barking up the wrong tree in trying to explain your problem as some sort of Bryston / Gershman power or impedance mismatch.  It almost sounds like something is grossly amiss in your setup.  Maybe something hooked up wrong, or perhaps a piece of gear in the chain is damaged or malfunctioning.

The other possibility is you have insufficient overall gain in the Bryston / Gershman channels. I say this because you say your other channels are blasting and Gershmans can barely keep up. 

Or possibly an impedance mismatch between your PL preamp and Bryston amp.  Is the ratio at least 10X?  (even higher is better)

I must confess, I'm a little confused about your setup....... Not sure what you mean by "using pre/pro to adjust speaker trim"     

Is this piece of gear in the chain with Bryston / Gershmans?  Are you running multiple channels, including Gershmans?
If so,  maybe all this extra gear is the problem?   I would take out all extra gear -- proceesor, other amps / speakers -- and set things up as a simple 2 channel rig thusly:
 
       source >>>>> PrimaLuna preamp >>>>>>Bryston amp >>>>>>Gershmans

If all gear is working properly I'd be seriously shocked if this didn't kick some serious ass.  If the problem returns when you add in the extra channels, then there's your problem.

Have you tried Gershmans with other amps?

Have you tried Bryston with other speakers?

These steps will help you to logically deduce where the problem lies.

Appreciate you taking the time to reply.  I wrote a lengthy response but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace.  I'll try to recreate it here...

Yes, in an attempt to procure a quick response, I glossed over my system.  It's really two systems in one.  One for two channel listening and one for HT.

System 1:

Oppo BDP 103
Auralic G2 Streamer
Denafrips Ares II Dac
Primaluna Evo 400 Preamp (Tube)
Bryston 14B3
Speakers:  Gershman Grand Avant Garde, B&W 801 S3 and a pair of Steve Nugent (Empirical Audio) modified Kef 104/2.

System 2:

Outlaw 976 Pre/Pro
Simaudio Aurora five channel HT amplifier (5 X 250W)
Various Bookshelf Speakers as surrounds

Both systems connected to a Bryston BIT20.

When listening to two channel, the only components running are typically the Auralic G2 into the Denafrips and then the Primaluna Preamp to the Bryston.  When the wife comes down and wants to watch a movie, I turn on the Outlaw Pre/Pro and set the Primaluna Preamp to HT mode.  In this condition, the Outlaw Pre/Pro controls the volume of Primaluna Pre which again, controls the front two channels.

When I was babbling on about trim, I was referring to the initial set up of the Outlaw.  A properly tuned surround system needs all speakers to be calibrated via a test tone.  On any other speaker, the front two speakers, being run via the Primaluna and the Bryston can easily match the surrounds, being powered by the Simaudio HT Amp.  Unfortunately, when the Gershmans are put into the system, there is not enough adjustment available.  Ie.  I set the "trim" on the front two channels (Bryston/Gershman) to the maximum setting and the remaining 5 channels (Simaudio/Bookshelf's) to the minimum setting, a noticeable split still exists between fronts and surrounds.

I'm afraid I'm out of my league on this problem. I've tried everything I can think of and still, the Gershman's just suck power in and do not give it back. All I can say is that when any other speaker is connected, they sing. When I connect the Gershman's back up, they die. I've tried Balanced, Single Ended, 29db gain, 23db gain, three different preamps and two different amps. I've bi-amped them, I switched polarity (As per Gershman) and still they continue to be the hardest speaker I've ever seen to drive.

I have to think that their is some kind of problem with the speakers themselves.  I've spoken to Gershman at length and while they believe the speakers are functioning properly, they have graciously agreed to take them back and give them a complete physical.

I have a friend with a JR Model 8TiHC I'm hoping to try and perhaps I can find someone local that may have a big Krell or similar but saving these two last ditch options, I'll just have to wait until I get a chance to head back to Toronto. In the mean time, they still make the most beautiful music when the volume is at 50% and I'll just have to get used to seeing the volume dial higher than normal.

Again, can't thank you enough for taking time to respond.

Cheers!

[Bemopti123]

It is a head scratcher.  I am the owner of some older Gershman X-1, SW-1 combos.  The original review stated that it would need a current stable amplifier, anything about 100+ Watts would be ideal.  I ran a DNA-225 with them and it whipped the Gershmans, making them jump at the juice available. 

It is possible that there is an overload in the outlet?  I have experienced less than optimal volumes either when the amp is straining with the speaker, because it did not have sufficient grunt to drive them (mismatch) or I am wonder if the circuit itself is being strained and the amp is not producing what it is capable if the circuit was not strained. 

Let the good people at Gershman check it over.  Perhaps you can ask them what sort of amplification they have used with them at the factory? Good luck with that and let us know what you find out. 

[ccpeabody]

It is a head scratcher.  I am the owner of some older Gershman X-1, SW-1 combos.  The original review stated that it would need a current stable amplifier, anything about 100+ Watts would be ideal.  I ran a DNA-225 with them and it whipped the Gershmans, making them jump at the juice available. 

It is possible that there is an overload in the outlet?  I have experienced less than optimal volumes either when the amp is straining with the speaker, because it did not have sufficient grunt to drive them (mismatch) or I am wonder if the circuit itself is being strained and the amp is not producing what it is capable if the circuit was not strained. 

Let the good people at Gershman check it over.  Perhaps you can ask them what sort of amplification they have used with them at the factory? Good luck with that and let us know what you find out.

That is an excellent suggestion!

I'll run a separate circuit tomorrow and see if there is a difference.

Thank you!

[sunnydaze]

So ccpeabody....

If I understand you correctly, the Gershmans are absolutely fine if used in a traditional 2 channel stereo setup when combined with Bryston amp.  Powerful, dynamic, ballsy, and loud.  Correct?

If so,  this means the amp and speakers are a good match.

It is only when you introduce all the other peripheral gear to make it into a 7 (or 5?) channel HT experience that you have a problem.  It is a relative output difference.  In other words, all your other channels are gutsy with the pre / pro set to min volume trim for them, while  Bryston / Gershman  are weak and flaccid with the pre / pro set to max volume trim for them.   So you have a large relative volume imbalance that you can't even out.   And once you get all the channels evened out, I assume you then control the overall volume with a master volume control.   Am I correct?  (Sorry for my ignorance here, I don't do HT)

If this is the case, then I don't think sending the speakers back to the factory will solve anything.  I assume they will test them in a standard stereo system and say they are fine.   Just like they are fine in your 2 channel rig.  You will have wasted all that $$ on the r/t shipping and risked shipping damage to boot.

As to why the Gershmans sound powerful and ballsy in a stereo config, and weak and impotent once introduced into a 5 (or 7 channel) setup...I have no idea.  Common sense and logic says to me that something is amiss with the pre / pro that is trying to level out relative SPL across all channels. 

Either that or you have serious gain mismatch across the 2 systems.  By this I mean that Bryston / Gershman is considered as one system, and the other amps / speakers are considered another system.  Each system has its own overall gain profile.  And what you are basically saying is that the latter system has much greater overall gain than the former.  Such that you can't balance them out with the pre / pro trim.  If you follow me.

More data that you have enough power......   
Check out the 2 amps this reviewer used, starting at 18:20 mark.  Neither comes close to the Bryston grunt and he says they are both quite sufficient, and one is a junk $400 Chinese amp!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RGNhSce8Uo

Perplexing problem, for sure.  Good luck finding the cure.

[ccpeabody]

Sorry, again, I'm not being clear.

No, despite the configuration, the Gershman's never obtain the appropriate volume.  Whether in two channel or in HT mode, the Gershman's are always falling behind in volume.  Remove the Gershman's and replace them with any sensitivity speaker and the system functions perfectly.

[sunnydaze]

Gotcha now. With everything you've said, sounds like a speaker problem.

Things got confused for me when discussing multichannel HT.

If it's simply a case where Gershmans got no balls, grunt and SPL when driven by Bryston in a simple 2 channel rig.....
and that same Bryston is balls to the wall on other speakers (in other words, amp is not defective)  then you clearly got a problem with the speakers.  And I can't believe it's a mismatch problem.  I think there is something wrong with them.

To prove that for certain......put several amps on the Gershmans.  If damaged, they won't work properly with any.

[WGH]

In the mean time, they still make the most beautiful music when the volume is at 50% and I'll just have to get used to seeing the volume dial higher than normal.

Sounds like a gain problem with the Primaluna. Do you have another preamp to try? Actually you do.
Take the Primaluna out of the system and plug the Outlaw's L&R into the Bryston. You will loose 2 surround channels but this is just an experiment. Make sure the volume is real low. 

Switch interconnects, those old Radio Shack freebees got to go (just kidding). Unplug and plug stuff back in, there might be some hidden corrosion.

When I researched new processors after my Outlaw 975 died everything I read pointed to an Anthem AVM60 (now discontinued). The Anthem so far outclassed the Outlaw sound that it was silly. The Bryston/Gershman combo deserve a lot better than the Outlaw. The Anthem AVM70 with ARC Genesis Room Correction balances all your speakers and really works.

[ccpeabody]

Gotcha now. With everything you've said, sounds like a speaker problem.

Things got confused for me when discussing multichannel HT.

If it's simply a case where Gershmans got no balls, grunt and SPL when driven by Bryston in a simple 2 channel rig.....
and that same Bryston is balls to the wall on other speakers (in other words, amp is not defective)  then you clearly got a problem with the speakers.  And I can't believe it's a mismatch problem.  I think there is something wrong with them.

To prove that for certain......put several amps on the Gershmans.  If damaged, they won't work properly with any.

Yes, your confusion is not your fault.  I get typing and start to think that everyone just naturally knows what I'm thinking... LOL!

As suggested, I did put another amp on the Gershman's with the same result.

I will try a separate (dedicated) circuit tomorrow though.  Someone else mentioned this along the way and it makes sense to me.  All my equipment is sharing the same circuit.  Perhaps the Gershmans demand more current from the Bryston but it can't supply current it can't get from the receptacle.

I'll report back one way or the other once upgraded.

Cheers and thanks again.