Videos about Audiophile Cable

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mkrawcz

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #140 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:40 pm »
If it is that obvious, it can be recorded.
No it can't. It's part of a 3d sound field being reproduced in the room. That cannot show up in a recording. Even Audioholics proved that in a video.

theater_lover

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #141 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:41 pm »
That's not how your brain works. Musical memory doesn't function the same way as language memory. Can you remember song lyrics and melodies from 20 years ago? Of course you can. Can a guitarist play a song that he hasn't played in decades? Of course he can. That ain't short term memory.

Of course you can remember songs, but every time you listen to it you will "hear" new things, even if you have heard it a thousand times before.

theater_lover

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #142 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:42 pm »
No it can't. It's part of a 3d sound field being reproduced in the room. That cannot show up in a recording. Even Audioholics proved that in a video.

Read my earlier responses in this thread.  I address this.

Early B.

Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #143 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:43 pm »
If it is that obvious, it can be recorded.

If it's so obvious to you, then record cable improvements yourself, post them here, grab some popcorn, and watch the fireworks as both naysayers and audiophiles pile on about how flawed and foolish your experiment is.
 

Early B.

Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #144 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:44 pm »
Of course you can remember songs, but every time you listen to it you will "hear" new things, even if you have heard it a thousand times before.

That's not true at all.

JTF

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #145 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:50 pm »
I also believe that there is a little bit of ego going on here.  If one person says that they can hear something, another will want to be able to hear it as well, and could trick themselves into hearing it.  "Listen to how everything opens up as I switch to this cable"  "Oh, yeah, I hear it".  Or, "Audiophiles can hear differences in cables.  I want to be an audiophile, so I want to hear the difference too."  Maybe it did make a difference, or maybe you are convincing yourself it is.

I agree with what you're saying theater lover. Part of what you wrote here is called priming, it's a classic concept often used in marketing.

theater_lover

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #146 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:51 pm »
If it's so obvious to you, then record cable improvements yourself, post them here, grab some popcorn, and watch the fireworks as both naysayers and audiophiles pile on about how flawed and foolish your experiment is.
 

I don't know if it is obvious.  Danny does.

JTF

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #147 on: 3 Mar 2021, 04:55 pm »
If it's so obvious to you, then record cable improvements yourself, post them here, grab some popcorn, and watch the fireworks as both naysayers and audiophiles pile on about how flawed and foolish your experiment is.

I think the burden of proof falls to Danny (and Amir, and Gene, etc.) at this point. You can't make claims in a video and post it for millions to see and then tell them all to go prove it to themselves.

theater_lover

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #148 on: 3 Mar 2021, 05:04 pm »
That's not true at all.

It may not be something notable, like a breath or a guitar player bending a note or the third chair violinist plucking a string.  Our hearing changes as we age, our understanding of music, our listening environments, our gear, the humidity, an extra pillow on the couch, our mood, how tired we are... it will always be different.

WGH

Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #149 on: 3 Mar 2021, 05:08 pm »
I also know that I, like everybody, could trick myself into hearing a difference.

I have been evaluating cables for a couple of months (it's a Covid thing since I don't go out much). The first round included the new Hapa interconnects.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=173888.0

The second round includes 3 Zenwave interconnects: the D3, DSR and the latest version of the D4, "a UPOCC silver/gold alloy cable with just enough gold added to achieve proper tone and realistic timbre"

I still have a couple of Hapa cables and there is a lot of cable switching (sometimes too much), listening to the same song multiple times on multiple cables and so on until I get bored and switch to watching a movie. The thing is, overnight I forget which of the 5 cables is being used. I turn on the stereo and tuner, the excellent Sony FDR-X1HD, and try to guess what cable is in the mix, so far I have guessed correctly every time. This morning it was the Zenwave D4.

I happily used the Schiit USB (rebranded Staightwire) for years then switched to a JMaxwell USB. Once, when I was troubleshooting my music server I switched USB cables from the JMaxwell back to the Schiit, when everything was working again the music still didn't sound right, it was flat with attenuated bass, then I remembered the Schiit was still in the loop, after replacing the USB with the JMaxwell the magic was back. That was a totally blind test and I passed.

The ability to notice cable differences can take a long time and a quick A-B test is not reliable. I took the Hapa cables on a min-tour to friends houses and over an afternoon the differences we heard were minimal and confusing. After my evaluation time was over members in our audiophile group got the cables for an additional 2 week evaluation. They ended up buying the Hapa cables, so did I.

My speaker cables are Kimber, very similar to what Danny is selling. I have listened to other speaker cables and nothing comes close for the money.

JTF

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #150 on: 3 Mar 2021, 05:08 pm »
And for what it's worth, I'm also not saying cables don't make a difference. I'm not against Danny on this, but I'm not gonna just go along with it either, especially when there's large groups and "evidence" piled up on both sides. I know what my own experiences with this are, and they don't match up with some of the over the top claims, which is why I'm asking for something more substantive.

JWCoffman

Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #151 on: 3 Mar 2021, 05:38 pm »
EDIT: 15 responses were written while I wrote this, some of which were making the some of the same points I'm trying to make.
tl;dr: We may not have access to the tools to measure what constitutes soundstage, and in the end it's a subjective hobby anyway.  Also, you can't prove a negative, that's a fundamental principle of logic.

As much as this circular conversation can be...tiresome, I think there's an important point to make.
Now, I've never owned, nor do I plan to own a system where a $500+ interconnect makes a noticeable difference in soundstage.  However, I fully believe that people have experienced a difference.  I'm also very new to this stuff, so bear with my relative ignorance.
That said, it sounds to me like this is a "you know it when you hear it" thing that is perhaps a little outside our current ability to measure it.
There are plenty of instances in the scientific world where we haven't been able to prove "what seems right" until we've had access to the means to measure them (higgs boson, neutrinos, gravitational waves, etc).  In those cases, it was the math and observation of phenomena that led us to those conclusions and the testing backed it up once we had the tools.  I can fully believe that somewhere in the din of sound waves reaching our ears (much of it subconscious) our brains are able to create an auditory picture that our current tools can't measure.  Of course, I will admit there are plenty of instances of "what seems right" being dead wrong as well.  The point I'm making is that just because we can't currently measure it doesn't mean it's not there, and those digging their heels in on this are venturing into the logical fallacy of trying to prove a negative.
Now, does this phenomena tend to lead this industry towards the snake oil realm?  Absolutely, and I think it's what turns a lot of people off to the idea of audiophiles.  It's crazy to think of people spending that much money on increasingly diminishing returns that at some point venture well into the realm of placebo affect and bias confirmation.
Perhaps at some point down the line we'll have sophisticated enough systems to tease out the differences that our brains are hearing, but the brain has vast processing power that we still don't fully understand.  We certainly know what the ear is capable of, but that is the simplest part of our auditory system, and our brains are capable of doing a lot with what seems like minimal sensory input.  Our brains constantly fill in missing information in our experiences and memories based on the most trivial sensory cues that could easily get lost in the underlying noise in the data.
So, is there a difference between a $5 power cable and a $500 one? Probably, and I'd be interested to hear what that difference is.  What about $500 vs a $5000?  Harder to believe and probably harder to hear, but not out of the realm of possibility on a sufficiently revealing system with a trained ear.  Are they measurable with the tools available to the average American (or even a highly experienced one)?  I don't know.
Finally, if someone fully believes that their $5000 interconnect lets them place the hi hat a little more accurately in a jazz piece that they thoroughly enjoy, then who are we to criticize that?  In the end, this is a subjective hobby.  If you don't feel they will make a difference for you, don't buy it.

Tyson

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #152 on: 3 Mar 2021, 11:38 pm »
JWCoffman,
Totally agree with you.  That point of diminishing returns is exactly why I recommend spending the most time/effort on getting the very best speakers you can because that's where the biggest bang for the buck is.  Then build the system around your speakers (amps and DAC).  And only at the very end of it worry about cables.  Because cables make a difference but it's a much smaller difference than any other component in the system. 

Actually that's not quite true.  IMO, the BIGGEST bang for the buck is doing room treatments along with placing your speakers well away from walls.  Room treatments are fairly inexpensive, especially if you DIY them.  And speaker placement is free!  Can't get any better bang for your buck than that.

Chilkoot

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #153 on: 4 Mar 2021, 04:15 pm »
Actually that's not quite true.  IMO, the BIGGEST bang for the buck is doing room treatments along with placing your speakers well away from walls.  Room treatments are fairly inexpensive, especially if you DIY them.  And speaker placement is free!  Can't get any better bang for your buck than that.
[/quote]

Tyson, I think you nailed it. 

corndog71

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #154 on: 4 Mar 2021, 07:00 pm »
It really comes down to how much you care about what you hear and how much money and effort you want to put into it.  Most people don’t care about high fidelity.  If you’re not going to bother making your playback system sound as good as possible then don’t bother with fancy cables.  It’s that simple.

mlundy57

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #155 on: 4 Mar 2021, 07:40 pm »
It really comes down to how much you care about what you hear and how much money and effort you want to put into it.  Most people don’t care about high fidelity.  If you’re not going to bother making your playback system sound as good as possible then don’t bother with fancy cables.  It’s that simple.

There also comes a point beyond which no matter how much difference you hear, you can't go there because your funds aren't unlimited. But then this holds true for everything unless you're one of the few that do have unlimited funds. I can either be jealous of those who can afford things I can't, cry sour grapes, or be happy with what I can have.

Would I like to have the next level up for my interconnects, Douglas Connection Alpha series vs the Bravo series I have? Yes I would. I've heard the Alpha series interconnects in my system and preferred them over the Bravos but I can't afford the Alphas so I will keep, and be happy with, the Bravos.

JonathanWalton7

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #156 on: 4 Mar 2021, 07:44 pm »
Wow, I can't believe there is already 8 pages of thoughts, opinion, debate, doubts and convictions stirring on this forum before danny has even finished this cable series LOL.  Personally, I would love to see what he covers by the final video.  Judging by his YouTube responses it feels like he's only got warmed up.  No matter how compelling their objection is he usually just says "stay tuned."  If his finale is anything like his earlier cable video from months ago he'll demonstrate his arguments and give everyone something finite to really chew on.  I don't have any expectations since I have no bets on either side of the big debate on cables.   :nono:   All I can do is judge for myself what I hear or don't hear when I try different cables in my system (once it's finished).  If anyone is in Texas they can go over to Danny's and obviously hear what he's been saying and judge for themselves.  Just interesting to see how serious everyone takes it.  It's truly admirable on one end....at times corrosive and divisive also, but heck it's sure interesting to see the 2 teams of thought.  Who will win before all is said and done? " Stay tuned!"     :wink:

Tyson

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #157 on: 4 Mar 2021, 10:21 pm »
I have never said cables can't make a difference, that isn't my argument at all.

I'm simply saying that if I heard a difference I know I could record some of that difference, if it were real, and to rule out that possibility means that you don't want to find out if it is real.  Secondly, one perspective is ruling out the validity of the other's tests because they don't subscribe to their subjective experience, and then (half jokingly) calling them flat earthers... when it is really they who should be given the nickname because they only believe what they observe.

I also know that I, like everybody, could trick myself into hearing a difference.

Simple example.  I sit down and listen to a song I know well, but I haven't heard recently.  Cable swap.  Listen to the track again.  I would absolutely "hear" new things, more detail, etc.  Why?  I would hear new things without a cable swap.  It is simply a function of short term memory and the mind's way of processing information.  On the second listen the mind would pay less attention to things it "knows" and try to find new information... so it does.  This holds true for anything done more than once.  Food sampling, reading, looking at a picture, watching a movie.  The more you concentrate on something, the more you absorb its finer properties.

Now, add to that any bias on my end to want a new cable to sound better.  If I am swapping parts of a system out it is because I want it to sound better.  There is inherent motivation for me to like the new thing more, and we all know we are guilty of choosing the new and shiny thing because it is new and shiny.

I also believe that there is a little bit of ego going on here.  If one person says that they can hear something, another will want to be able to hear it as well, and could trick themselves into hearing it.  "Listen to how everything opens up as I switch to this cable"  "Oh, yeah, I hear it".  Or, "Audiophiles can hear differences in cables.  I want to be an audiophile, so I want to hear the difference too."  Maybe it did make a difference, or maybe you are convincing yourself it is.

Lastly, nobody wants to admit they are tricking themselves, but for some reason we all tend to find that our year old speakers don't sound quite as good as we remember them sounding, and maybe we should start looking for something different.  The speakers haven't changed.  Your perception of them has.



Your logic and caution are sound.  Fooling ourselves is very easy.  I think I did that too, back in the beginning, and it wasn't limited to cables, it included other components as well.  I think what was happening was that in the back of my mind I was saying something along the lines of "well this DAC cost 2X how much my last DAC cost, so it MUST be better".  Sometimes that was true about the new component, but sometimes it wasn't. The times where it wasn't true (ie, things got worse), I'd notice over time that I was listening to music less often.  And enjoying music less.  So I learned that snap judgements are not to be trusted.  That was an expensive lesson!

Nowadays, I put something in my system and I live with it for a while before I decide if I'm going to keep it or not.  I've also noticed that price is not always correlated with performance.  This includes cables too.  I recently had some cables in my system that cost 3x what my current cables cost.  And it turns out I really disliked them.  So out they went, and the extra $$ just stayed in my pocket. 

This is a long, rambling way of saying that if you notice that EVERY TIME you try out a more expensive cable, that you prefer it, and there's NEVER a time were you don't, then there's a good chance you are fooling yourself.  On the other hand, if you have times where you actually don't like the change, then you are far less likely to be fooling yourself.  Especially if you allow yourself to live with the change over time.  Snap judgements are (IME), not very reliable. 

theater_lover

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #158 on: 4 Mar 2021, 10:56 pm »
Any which way you believe about cables, all of this is about pursuing something that is unobtainable.  There are limitations and flaws throughout the entire process of audio presentation.

At some point you have to be happy with what you have.

If you can't, and money is burning a hole in your pocket, give it to charity.
You still won't be happy about your system, but maybe you will feel better by helping someone else.

corndog71

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Re: Videos about Audiophile Cable
« Reply #159 on: 4 Mar 2021, 10:58 pm »
Sometimes that was true about the new component, but sometimes it wasn't. The times where it wasn't true (ie, things got worse), I'd notice over time that I was listening to music less often.  And enjoying music less.  So I learned that snap judgements are not to be trusted.  That was an expensive lesson!

Nowadays, I put something in my system and I live with it for a while before I decide if I'm going to keep it or not.  I've also noticed that price is not always correlated with performance.  This includes cables too.  I recently had some cables in my system that cost 3x what my current cables cost.  And it turns out I really disliked them.  So out they went, and the extra $$ just stayed in my pocket. 

This is a long, rambling way of saying that if you notice that EVERY TIME you try out a more expensive cable, that you prefer it, and there's NEVER a time were you don't, then there's a good chance you are fooling yourself.  On the other hand, if you have times where you actually don't like the change, then you are far less likely to be fooling yourself.  Especially if you allow yourself to live with the change over time.  Snap judgements are (IME), not very reliable.

These have happened to me too.  I’ve tried multiple times with cables and components and tweaks.  I’ve ridden that audiophile merry go round for years.  I spent a lot of money on things that didn’t pan out. 

“Listening to music less.”  Bingo!  That’s exactly how it feels when my stereo isn’t working.  And it’s the exact opposite when it is.  I have to tear myself away from my stereo even while listening to music I should be tired of by now.

My most recent purchase that’s added to my enjoyment is the Schiit Modi Multibit dac.  It is a freaking steal at $250 and makes me want to save up for their bigger dac.  Last fall I tried out Iconoclast BAV rca interconnects and immediately heard a difference over my homemade and Kimber PBJ interconnects.  I ended up replacing all of the interconnects in my main rig with them.  I’d love to try the Iconoclast cables too but right now I’m happy with what I have.  And that’s the point, right?