[JTF]

Sound clips?? Seriously? That's like asking Stevie Wonder to take an eye exam. If you can't see, a vision test will only confirm that you're blind.

Danny is doing precisely what you're asking him to do -- he's documenting his listening experiences with cables over the course of 30 years. His experiences mirror mine and many, many other audiophiles. If that's not enough, note that the naysayers cannot more sufficiently document nor prove that they don't hear differences between cables.

It's not an outlandish idea, and I get that conveying something like this may be frustrating. If the goal is to spread the word that cables matter, and numbers don't back it up, then try and demonstrate it. Can't really blame people for not taking the word of audiophiles.

As far as sound clips go, it's worth trying. I've heard differences in amps in YouTube clips, and if a cable swap is significant then there's a good chance you'll be able to hear something in a good recording. If that doesn't work, try something else, below is an example. I just think, if you're gonna roll 5 videos deep into a controversial topic, stories about personal experiences probably aren't going to cut it for a lot of people. And as far as 'many other audiophiles' corroborating it, there are plenty of recent examples of large groups of people believing things, that aren't necessarily true

[corndog71]

I just think, if you're gonna roll 5 videos deep into a controversial topic, stories about personal experiences probably aren't going to cut it for a lot of people. And as far as 'many other audiophiles' corroborating it, there are plenty of recent examples of large groups of people believing things, that aren't necessarily true

If it were that easy someone would’ve done it by now.  Nothing beats direct experience.

[Edgar77]

I'm not asking for that.

I am asking Danny to apply the same logic, tools and methods to his speaker cables as he applies to his other products.
I'm also not asking for "sound clips", but detailed waveforms of averaged clips taken under optimal circumstances, with high quality gear.

I am open to the idea that different cables could present a different sound for a number of reasons, but anyone who says that modern recording tech can not capture any difference, but their ears can, is not being honest with themselves or others.

It would either be that you do not want to show what that difference is, or, you don't want to admit that you can't actually hear a difference, or you want to be able to hear a difference.  Who doesn't want things to be better?

At some point you have to admit that an argument lacks merit if you aren't willing to use logical methods to prove or disprove it.

I agree with you.

What confuses me is that Danny shows all these test with a cable as an antenna, two coils, and at least for me it seems like he wants to show us how easy it is to measure things. But then there are no measurements for the only important thing: What comes out of the speakers.

I would be more open to accept if Danny would just tell us something like: You can only hear the differences life on a very good system. You won't be able to hear it over YouTube. And (maybe) I am not able to measure the difference but I hear it.
I think that would be fair enough.
But then he has these technical explanations which, at least for me with some technical background, are not convincing.

[77SunsetStrip]

How about this marketing approach to promote an audio product?

We have spared no expense to produce the most perfectly measuring _________ (fill in the blank).  Our product measures so perfectly, we do not waste time listening. Instead, we rush _________ (fill in the blank) to the marketplace so consumers can enjoy their own copies of perfection - beautiful charts and graphs.  After all, every _______ (fill in the blank) sounds the same.

Those of us with decades of experience know measurements are valuable, but listening is the most important part of the process.  Do you believe a person with years and years of designing and manufacturing products?  Or do you believe a person acting as a critic with no requisite design and manufacturing experience?  I choose the first.  Not only based on faith, but because of my own verification and validation.

[Edgar77]

If it were that easy someone would’ve done it by now.  Nothing beats direct experience.

One video, 3 different good cable, 3 people, and a blind test maybe switching between cables 10 times.
And then showing the results that at least 2 or the 3 people can listen and know which cable is which with high accuracy.

What do you need for this? 3 listeners, one person who switches the cables, 3 cables a good amp and good speakers. It would be easy for Danny to make such a video - if he wants to.

[mkrawcz]

If it were that easy someone would’ve done it by now.  Nothing beats direct experience.

It’s one of those things where once you actually sit in front of something like NX-Treme which are simply the best speakers in the world at any price IMO. You go “Oh I see”. Thats why Danny keeps telling people to stop by and listen.

[Early B.]

Imagine a cable-loving audiophile insisting that a naysayer prove that he cannot hear differences in cables by providing measurements and sound tests. It's a silly request, isn't it? Naysayers demand scientific proof that they know isn't possible for anyone to provide. It's like insisting that your wife provide you with objective, scientific proof that she loves you because your experiences with her aren't sufficient evidence. 

[Edgar77]

How about this marketing approach to promote an audio product?

We have spared no expense to produce the most perfectly measuring _________ (fill in the blank).  Our product measures so perfectly, we do not waste time listening. Instead, we rush _________ (fill in the blank) to the marketplace so consumers can enjoy their own copies of perfection - beautiful charts and graphs.  After all, every _______ (fill in the blank) sounds the same.

Those of us with decades of experience know measurements are valuable, but listening is the most important part of the process.  Do you believe a person with years and years of designing and manufacturing products?  Or do you believe a person acting as a critic with no requisite design and manufacturing experience?  I choose the first.  Not only based on faith, but because of my own verification and validation.

Amir, the author of the "answer"-video has technical education, many years of work in that field, his ears are trained (he can hear the difference between 16bit and 24bit), and he has top measuring equipment and knows how to use it. Apart from that he also has a very good reputation.
I don't say he is always 100% right. But for sure it does not hurt to listen to what he has to say.

[Edgar77]

Imagine a cable-loving audiophile insisting that a naysayer prove that he cannot hear differences in cables by providing measurements and sound tests. It's a silly request, isn't it? Naysayers demand scientific proof that they know isn't possible for anyone to provide. It's like insisting that your wife provide you with objective, scientific proof that she loves you because your experiences with her aren't sufficient evidence.

Let's forget about the wife.
Why do "naysayers" know it "isn't possible for anyone to provide" proof? Many scientific measurements are way better than what humans can hear, see, etc.
The point of the doubters is that it should be measurable because measurements are (mostly) more accurate than humans.

[JTF]

Imagine a cable-loving audiophile insisting that a naysayer prove that he cannot hear differences in cables by providing measurements and sound tests. It's a silly request, isn't it? Naysayers demand scientific proof that they know isn't possible for anyone to provide. It's like insisting that your wife provide you with objective, scientific proof that she loves you because your experiences with her aren't sufficient evidence.

It's a little different, isn't it? The naysayer probably isn't trying to sell me a cable for starters. A lot of people in the YouTube comments are asking for an a/b test, you could ask the naysayer to provide the same things if you don't find their measurements convincing, an a/b or sound clip would work either way wouldn't it?

Here's that example I mentioned in my last post but forgot to paste in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJGw8zwx-6g&t=1993s

[Danny Richie]

I agree with you.

What confuses me is that Danny shows all these test with a cable as an antenna, two coils, and at least for me it seems like he wants to show us how easy it is to measure things.

Those measurements were just illustrations to show cable differences. And only differences in one aspect (FRI and EMI filtering), and that is just part of what's going on and may not even account for the majority of the differences. But it was something to see and understand from the illustrations.

But then there are no measurements for the only important thing: What comes out of the speakers.

There isn't any way I can measure a speaker that will show the differences that are made form the cables. And neither can anyone else that I know of.

I would be more open to accept if Danny would just tell us something like: You can only hear the differences life on a very good system.

I lot of the differences are things that you will only hear with a good system. I dedicated episode 4 completely to talking about the importance of system set up.

You won't be able to hear it over YouTube.

I'm pretty sure that's possible.

And (maybe) I am not able to measure the difference but I hear it.

There are too many areas that the cables effect that are impossible to measure. 

I think that would be fair enough. But then he has these technical explanations which, at least for me with some technical background, are not convincing.

Convincing people that cables matter is easy. All they have to do is show up and listen. No one has ever walked away from my system thinking cables don't matter. Convincing someone over the Internet, is pretty tough.

[Danny Richie]

One video, 3 different good cable, 3 people, and a blind test maybe switching between cables 10 times.
And then showing the results that at least 2 or the 3 people can listen and know which cable is which with high accuracy.

What do you need for this? 3 listeners, one person who switches the cables, 3 cables a good amp and good speakers. It would be easy for Danny to make such a video - if he wants to.

We are going to shot some video's, don't worry. Just hang on. Right now there isn't enough hours in the day. We shipped out 57 orders Monday and 41 today. And we have over 130 orders in house to get out. Those are going to come first.

And I'll be in here at the office until 11:00 or later just answering emails.

Anyone looking for a job in the audio industry and want to move to Texas?

[77SunsetStrip]

Amir, the author of the "answer"-video has technical education, many years of work in that field, his ears are trained (he can hear the difference between 16bit and 24bit), and he has top measuring equipment and knows how to use it. Apart from that he also has a very good reputation.
I don't say he is always 100% right. But for sure it does not hurt to listen to what he has to say.

Frankly, wish Danny and Amir had not started this dueling videos drama.  To a large degree both are preaching to the choir.  Personally, I find many of Amir's measurements to be valuable data.  His conclusions and interpretations, not so much.   

Everything positive you say about Amir can also be said about Danny.  What Danny is trying to convey will resonate strongly with me because been there, done that long before ever heard of Danny.  No problem considering the measurement data Amir provides.  Conclusions or claims of "scientific" proof provided by Amir, sorry but NO.

[corndog71]

Anyone looking for a job in the audio industry and want to move to Texas?

Sure you can’t outsource some work to Chicago? 

[sarora9]

Danny you were hoping this thread stays clean but it seems the trolls got in.

Folks, as I reported earlier in the thread I did an A/B test with power, speaker and interconnects in recent months  Upgraded from full loom of blue jeans cables to full loom of VH Audio (a reasonable entry level DIY audiophile loom; not too expensive) in 3 steps over 3 months. The tester was my wife, a careful listener, who couldn't see the cables being used (and doesn't care either; she is not an audio geek). Switched with 30-40 sec change time.

She *clearly* heard the difference and her preferences aligned with VH Audio stuff easily and *within seconds.* It is not subtle at all. (We listen primarily to classical music + some jazz and are very used to hearing unamplified live music from attending about half a dozen concerts a year.)

I am completely flabbergasted that power cables can make a huge difference. I have a computer science phd and had been an audiophile ---blue jeans/Amir type---for two decades. Another phenomenon I have no explanation for is long break-in. Lasting weeks!

System is Roon -> Bricasti M1 SE + streamer -> Folsom 7293 DIY amp -> Spatial X3

[Hobbsmeerkat]

We are going to shot some video's, don't worry. Just hang on. Right now there isn't enough hours in the day. We shipped out 57 orders Monday and 41 today. And we have over 130 orders in house to get out. Those are going to come first.

And I'll be in here at the office until 11:00 or later just answering emails.

Anyone looking for a job in the audio industry and want to move to Texas?

I've actually considered moving to Texas many times tbh, esp since I have several friends in the Dallas area..
Only thing is, I'm not quite in the position, financially to move yet.

That said, learning new things, applying that information, and working with my hands is what I enjoy most.
I'd just need to figure out a living space, and the process of lisence/address changes etc, and make sure I have some cash on hand to give myself a safety net.

But it's a truely tempting offer...

[Danny Richie]

Frankly, wish Danny and Amir had not started this dueling videos drama.

I started the video's on cables because customers asked for it quite a bit. I never asked for the drama but it wasn't unexpected.

To a large degree both are preaching to the choir.

Yes, a lot of people share my same experiences with cables. A lot of people share his beliefs.

Personally, I find many of Amir's measurements to be valuable data.  His conclusions and interpretations, not so much.   

Agreed. And man, I'd love to have him over for a day.

Everything positive you say about Amir can also be said about Danny.  What Danny is trying to convey will resonate strongly with me because been there, done that long before ever heard of Danny.  No problem considering the measurement data Amir provides.  Conclusions or claims of "scientific" proof provided by Amir, sorry but NO.

Agreed.

[Early B.]

The naysayer probably isn't trying to sell me a cable for starters.

No one on this forum is trying to sell you any cables. 

The naysayer doesn't believe cables make a significant sonic difference or any difference at all. That's OK. Most audiophiles began their journey as cable disbelievers. However, the vast majority of seasoned audiophiles aren't using stock power cords and entry level interconnects for one simple reason -- good cables sound better. You can conduct a scientifically valid survey with audiophiles to confirm this. Of course, no naysayer would dare do that because the outcome would prove them wrong. As an audiophile, I would LOVE to be proven wrong. It would save me a lot of money. I got a boatload of brand new stock power cords eager to get in the game!! 

 

[Tyson]

What's amazing to me is just how 2nd hand all the arguments of the naysayers is.  It's along the lines of "well person X tried different cables and measured them and found no difference, so there must not be a difference". 

A much better approach is to try out the cables yourself, in your own system, and see if you hear a difference.  If you have, and you didn't hear a difference, that's way more meaningful because it comes from your direct experience. 

[JTF]

No one on this forum is trying to sell you any cables. 

Comment was an allusion to the context of this thread, Danny's cable videos. Based on some of his comments above, it sounds like he thinks a YouTube demonstration of the sonic differences will work. I look forward to that.