What's the path to better dialog ?

oldears2 · « **on:** 14 Feb 2021, 12:40 pm »

Old ears and damaged hearing leaves me watching movies with subtitles. MP3 vs hi-res, no difference to me. Guess that means I am no audiophile or even a critical listener ! What is important is HT dialog. How to maximize the clarity of spoken words, particularly in movies/streaming/etc ? I have a 5.1.2 system with Elac Debut 5.2 fronts (b5.2/c5.2/b5.2) driven by a Yamaha RX-A660 avr. I have worked on room treatments, speaker positioning, avr settings (hundreds !!!), etc, etc. and the results tend to be the same. Is it worth looking at the center channel - either a significant upgrade or a modification on what I have or is my situation something that I just need to live with ?

mlundy57 · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 Feb 2021, 06:07 pm »

Is all dialog a problem of just after effects with a lot of bass?

If the later, the answer is a servo controlled sub like Danny's Servo Sub Kit 4. I have one in both my living room system which is mainly HT and my music room which is HT secondary. In both situations, the subs settle so fast that dialog which used to be obscured is clearly audible.

If it is all dialog, that is a more complicated situation. What you need is more clarity and detail in the midrange. The initial question is what is the weakest link as far as clarity and detail are concerned, the speakers, especially the center channel, or the electronics.

The easiest would be to have Danny check out the center channel for upgrade if he doesn't have a upgrade for that model yet. You'd have to send him the center channel speaker to measure if doesn't have an upgrade for that model. With the crossover upgrade I'd recommend using Sonocpas, Miflex by-pass caps, and Mills resistors in both the tweeter and woofer circuits since you want as much detail in the vocal range as you can get. Also, upgrade the binding posts to tube connectors and add NoRez to the cabinet.

If this doesn't give you enough vocal clarity, I would look for an AVR that is known to be good in this area.

Mike

dlparker · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Feb 2021, 07:02 pm »

When listening to 'talk' shows, news, etc. I often turn the treble to max and the bass to min. Helps a lot.

Early B. · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Feb 2021, 07:08 pm »

Invest in a much higher quality center channel and buy a monoblock amplifier to power it. You'll get much clearer dialogue. In fact, if I had "old ears," I wouldn't even bother with a 5-channel system. The extra "noise" has gotta be annoying.

WGH · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Feb 2021, 09:09 pm »

Back in 2014 I bought my first "real" center speaker, a RAW HT2C with the excellent Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeter. My side speakers are Salk HT2-TL with the RAAL ribbon tweeter so I thought the center would be a good match. Although better than my previous center speaker dialog was still hard to understand in some situations.

The problem turned out the RAW HT2C was ported, even though the ports were in the back the bass distorted the sound just enough to blur dialog.

Center speakers do not need ports, home theater receivers should roll off the bass to all speakers at 80Hz - 100Hz. You don't need bass from a center speaker, you need clarity. The subwoofer using the LFE (low frequency effects) channel handles all the bass below 100 Hz.

A few years later I picked up a used Salk Veracity HT2C center speaker, the drivers are exactly the same as my side speakers and it has no ports. The combination of the Seas titanium drivers and RAAL tweeter make for crystal clear dialog no matter how loud of soft the dialog. The addition of a Van Alstine 3 channel amp helps too, the center gets 125 watts, it never runs out of steam.

The Yamaha RX-A660 has 80 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.09% THD, with 2 channels driven
In a 5.1.2 system the receiver is driving 7 speakers, divide 160W by 7 and each speaker gets 22.8 watts - that is pitiful, there is probably enough distortion to fuzz up the dialog too.
The Yamaha RX-A660 doesn't have line outs so you can't add more powerful amps, you are stuck with what you have unless you buy a new receiver. I recommend Anthem but their prices are out of budget territory, clarity comes at a price.

Since you have a budget receiver and speakers I would guess the $1795 Salk center is not a viable solution and at 88dB sensitivity the Yamaha wouldn't be able to drive it anyway.

I suggest look for a better center, I don't know if Elac has a center without ports. While you are looking for a solution take two socks and stuff each port then go into the Yamaha menu and change the center channel crossover to 125Hz or higher.

SoCalWJS · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Feb 2021, 10:18 pm »

Not very familiar with the Elac speaker lineup. Danny recently posted a video on YT that includes an ELAC CC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S99CeK2QjqM

Is that the one you have?

You've already done most of the things I know of that can help. Room treatments, specifically corner traps for bass improved my CC dialog issues the most. I also angled the CC so it fired towards my listening position (in my case the speaker sits just below the screen, so the front is angled up). I have had HT Receivers that allowed you to "Boost" dialog in the settings, if not you can always boost the CC volume a db or 2.

Doublej · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Feb 2021, 11:01 pm »

Reset receiver to factory settings. Install the Yamaha setup app on your phone or tablet. Set speaker sizes appropriately. Set dialog enhancement to max. Turn on Dynamic Range Control. Experiment with increasing the output of the center channel relative to the other channels and try turning on the drama soundfield setting to see if it helps.

The answer might be a pair of ZVOX headphones or soundbar but that's no fun. They do have free hearing test on their website...

https://zvox.com/pages/hearingtest

Bendingwave · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 03:17 am »

Quote from: oldears2 on 14 Feb 2021, 12:40 pm

Old ears and damaged hearing leaves me watching movies with subtitles. MP3 vs hi-res, no difference to me. Guess that means I am no audiophile or even a critical listener ! What is important is HT dialog. How to maximize the clarity of spoken words, particularly in movies/streaming/etc ? I have a 5.1.2 system with Elac Debut 5.2 fronts (b5.2/c5.2/b5.2) driven by a Yamaha RX-A660 avr. I have worked on room treatments, speaker positioning, avr settings (hundreds !!!), etc, etc. and the results tend to be the same. Is it worth looking at the center channel - either a significant upgrade or a modification on what I have or is my situation something that I just need to live with ?

A single full range driver used as a center channel speaker is all you need if all you want is to hear the dialog clearly. Do not use any dolby decodes instead use the 5.1 channel stereo but turn all the channels off except for the center. I have found that just using the center channel speaker on its own will produce the most coherent sound when it comes to dialogue.

mresseguie · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 05:46 am »

Hmm。 Everyone's hearing loss is different, of course, but here is what works for my hearing:

I tried two different AVRs first with 5.1 followed by 3.1, and I was never quite satisfied with the result. Finally, in frustration, I tried good old fashioned 2-channel with sub (2.1) and discovered it works best for my ears. I believe the 5.1 and 3.1 created a, 'information overload' situation for my particular hearing issues. Pairing it down to 2 channels works really well for me. BTW, this is not the TV's speakers. This 2-channel is using an optical connection to my DAC feeding the signal into my 2-channel integrated amp and into my speakers.

Have you tried 2-channel?

Good luck.

Michael

charmerci · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 05:59 am »

I'm not sure if it's possible at this time but you really should have your hearing tested to know what frequencies you are having trouble hearing. Or with your system, hook up a computer and listen to all the frequencies, see what your deficiencies are and turn those up on the equalizer - though it might mean that it could sound terrible to other listeners.

Bendingwave · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 10:06 am »

Quote from: Bendingwave on 15 Feb 2021, 03:17 am

A single full range driver used as a center channel speaker is all you need if all you want is to hear the dialog clearly. Do not use any dolby decodes instead use the 5.1 channel stereo but turn all the channels off except for the center. I have found that just using the center channel speaker on its own will produce the most coherent sound when it comes to dialogue.

Also IMO a single full range or coaxial driver is the most coherent when it comes to dialogue then a mtm designed center channel. The full range or coaxial driver should be 3-4 inches as that is the ideal size that produces the best mids since dialogue is mostly in the midrange bandwidth.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 01:09 pm »

Why can't we all just get along?

Oh, from the title I thought the thread was something else, never mind.

oldears2 · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 01:21 pm »

Quote from: Doublej on 14 Feb 2021, 11:01 pm

Reset receiver to factory settings. Install the Yamaha setup app on your phone or tablet. Set speaker sizes appropriately. Set dialog enhancement to max. Turn on Dynamic Range Control. Experiment with increasing the output of the center channel relative to the other channels and try turning on the drama soundfield setting to see if it helps.

The answer might be a pair of ZVOX headphones or soundbar but that's no fun. They do have free hearing test on their website...

https://zvox.com/pages/hearingtest

That is exactly where I am currently with my avr settings. Also experimenting with turning eq up in the dialog range and down a bit below that. Thanks for the suggestions.

Toecutter · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 07:30 pm »

Do you know what frequencies you have trouble hearing? Or is it across the board

oldears2 · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 10:04 pm »

Very diminished after about 11k. The tinnitus covers up a lot however.

Bendingwave · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Feb 2021, 10:04 pm »

Quote from: Bendingwave on 15 Feb 2021, 10:06 am

Also IMO a single full range or coaxial driver is the most coherent when it comes to dialogue then a mtm designed center channel. The full range or coaxial driver should be 3-4 inches as that is the ideal size that produces the best mids since dialogue is mostly in the midrange bandwidth.

https://www.parts-express.com/Tang-Band-W3-2141-3-Paper-Cone-Full-Range-Driver-8-Ohm-264-956

Toecutter · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Feb 2021, 01:35 am »

Quote from: oldears2 on 15 Feb 2021, 10:04 pm

Very diminished after about 11k. The tinnitus covers up a lot however.

I have tinnitus as well, it sucks, I feel for you. It doesn't effect me hearing dialog, mostly drives me nuts in complete silence.
I can't hear anything between above 14k .

oldears2 · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Feb 2021, 03:10 pm »

Quote from: Bendingwave on 15 Feb 2021, 10:04 pm

https://www.parts-express.com/Tang-Band-W3-2141-3-Paper-Cone-Full-Range-Driver-8-Ohm-264-956
/quote]Interesting driver. Is there a box available to put it in ? Certainly eliminates the need for a cross-over of either cheap or expensive components ! Cross-over to the sub at 80-90 Hz ?

oldears2 · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Feb 2021, 03:13 pm »

Quote from: Toecutter on 16 Feb 2021, 01:35 am

I have tinnitus as well, it sucks, I feel for you. It doesn't effect me hearing dialog, mostly drives me nuts in complete silence.
I can't hear anything between above 14k .

Yeah, fortunately I can ignore it (tinnitus) but I've known people who couldn't and it was a serious problem. On a hearing test though it certainly blocks some inputs.

genjamon · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Feb 2021, 04:16 pm »

Quote from: oldears2 on 16 Feb 2021, 03:10 pm

Quote from: Bendingwave on 15 Feb 2021, 10:04 pm
https://www.parts-express.com/Tang-Band-W3-2141-3-Paper-Cone-Full-Range-Driver-8-Ohm-264-956
/quote]Interesting driver. Is there a box available to put it in ? Certainly eliminates the need for a cross-over of either cheap or expensive components ! Cross-over to the sub at 80-90 Hz ?

If you had the space, a pair of Hornshoppe Horns placed on their sides and wired in parallel would be interesting to try. They use Fostex 4" fullrange drivers, no crossover, and are not that expensive on the used market. They also have solid output down to around 70 hz, which is perfect for center channel.