[Luigi]

FWIW, I just finished making a pair of floorstanding speakers in the weekend, really just as an experiment to see how easy it is to make an inexpensive, high sensitivity loudspeaker, and to check out what a cost-effective full-range driver sounds like.

The speakers are a Fostex bass reflex design (an if-you-must afterthought to their backloaded horns, it would appear) and are similar to the Big Fun units on the internet; 45L, 3" diameter port. I used no binding posts, at least at the speaker interface - just silver coated copper wire from drive units straight through to the amp.

Hooked up to my Aussie designed and built tube/gainclone JLTI MK II 35wpc integrated amp (this has to be one of the greatest unheard-of amps ever) and Ah Tjoeb CD player with upsampler, the speakers immediately sounded fast, alive and vibrant, without much of the expected piercing treble or "shouty"ness. Guess it helps having tubes in the pathway to soften things (in the integrated amp and CD player).

The drive units evidently take stacks of running in, but if you want an impression of the performer being there in the room with you, it's hard to go past a dual-concentric (whizzercone for treble) fullrange crossover-less design, I now believe.

The hotspot is quite narrow, but vocal clarity is almost headphone like. You can delineate lyrics that were muffled in the mix with other speakers. It makes ordinary recordings sound less than ordinary.

The bass I expected to be non-existent. T'aint so. Sure, it isn't yet stupendous but nor is it missing in action, and appears tuneful. Hopefully, things will just get better with run-in, and evidently these take 100s of hours to come right.

I can't believe the speed of these things. Nor their sheer involvement. The treble Im not yet quite sold on. But will let the things run in first. However, I'm surprised by how high they reach already. It isn't like a whole much of the top end is missing, rather it's just not quite natural sounding yet. Im hoping this is a run-in thing, but like what I hear so much already I don't even care.

My previous speakers were Adire Audio HE 10s, upgraded with Fostex FE17H hornloaded tweeters. These were good, but the fullrange speakers are better again, overall, by a comfortable margin.

The other amazing thing is that they make my 35wpc amp seem like a V8, such is the sensitivity of the Fostex drivers.

Cost of the project? Enclosures were about $500, drive units around $300, and wire about $50. So under $1000 comfortably. Plus the satisfaction of making the ugly buggers myself.

Luigi

[SET Man]

Congratulation Luigi  And welcome to the world of xover less Single Driver speaker! Yes, they do sound like a good pair of headphone but with space, clerity and D3 like sound that surround you. From a simple looking paper cone speaker...amazing isn't it?


I know exactly what you are talking about since I'm also using Fostex, FE167E in my case in tall TQWT



Well, give them more time to break in and the high is beamy so try to toe them in until the sound locked in the center.

Buddy

[GrahamnDodder]

$1000? Sounds pretty high. Is that in $US, or local currency?

FWIW, we can get the Fostex 206's here for $170US a pair. Curious to see if they are that much more expensive in New Zealand...

[Luigi]

Hi GrahamnDodder

Price may seem high, but I paid around the equivalent of $US170 for the drive units. Our dollar buys US70cents, and I also have to pay for freight from Australia.

As to the remaining costs, my enclosures are made of PVC tubing, not MDF. And the part that houses the driver involves a costly 90 degree bend, so the speakers look like periscopes. They tend to overbalance too, so I have had to make feet for them. So now they resemble penguins. Heh heh. The missus is appalled, but I've always thought that WAF is overrated. Actually, wives in general. Just kidding, though we aint married. She thinks Im a little wacko, but we don't rate homemaking high on the agenda. And to my mind the sound is everything, the look secondary. It's like homebrew beer; you learn to love your own.

The ports vent out the bottom of the enclosures and I had to have four circles routed, for top and bottom endplates with the requisite hole sizes. It all adds up, but then try buying a decent pair of high sensitivity floor standers for the equivalent of $US700. T'aint possible.

What impresses me about these is the sound of no crossover. The driver seems to be SET free somehow, and the amp's power doesn't get soaked up and turned into heat.

Problem is, what will the next speaker project be? Perhaps some floorstanders with Jordan drive units.

[lonewolfny42]

Luigi:

As to the remaining costs, my enclosures are made of PVC tubing, not MDF. And the part that houses the driver involves a costly 90 degree bend, so the speakers look like periscopes.

[/list:u]

Would they look like what SET Man/Buddy built ?[/list:u]

[/list:u]

[Luigi]

Hi Lonewolf

Yep, those are they, more or less. With a few diffs. Mine have a proper 90 degree bend, so Im not left with the superfluous piece above the driver. But man, did it ever stretch my limited maths ability working out how to achieve a 45L enclosure size!

In our neck of the woods, I couldn't buy virgin unmarked plastic. So I'm having to carpet the scratched lower section. That should improve WAF by about 1 per cent. And it may also damp the enclosure some. Their rap test isnt great, but they really dont sound boxy at all.

I like the alien support feet on the speakers you've shown, but mine were already so tall, I could only use a couple of sections of sturdy aluminium for each speaker to stand on. Hence, they look like penguins rather than periscopes. Without the feet they kept falling over. With the current feet, they hover just above the carpet, so the port can breathe a bit. And the drivers are at ear level when seated, so it all worked out ok.

No-one in the office can believe my other half would allow toilet plumbing to hang round in the living room. Guess they have a point, cos she hasn't seen them finished yet, and is away overseas! Heh heh.

I was super-impressed by how they played so cleanly straight out of the box…drivers that is. I just filled the enclosures up with loosely shredded dacron.

Now I might just have to play around with some other fullranger drivers. Im interested in the Jordans.

The original idea was to build these so I could try some SET amps. But Im just so blown away with the JLTI Mk II tubed gainclone (from Vacuum State Electronics) that I'm unlikely to bother. As Ive mentioned several times, this is a killer wee amp with a 6922 preamp stage.

Luigi

[Luigi]

Hey SETman/Buddy

I forgot to ask: what are the drivers you used in the plumber's dream speakers you built?

Luigi

[miklorsmith]

Excellent!  I have some too.  Mine are conventional wood though, albeit of somewhat unconventional geometry.  I agree they sound stupendous.

However, they are not balanced.  There are some really cheap, easy things you can do to damp the basket and magnet that are completely worthy.  However, these will never achieve balance without some equalization.  Just native to the driver.  I've been trying to get mine to sound neutral and it just won't work without eq. somewhere.

I have a graphic eq. in the chain right now but will be playing some with circuits, the simpler the better to keep efficiency high.  Even the cheapo eq. brings the bass up and the mids down.

It all depends on what you listen to, as well.  Much of my diet is female vocalists, which need no equalization.  Put some Zep on though and you'll see what I mean.  I'll get back here when I find the right combo.

About the Jordans - they are reported to be excellent, but the sensitivity sucks.

[Gordy]

Here is a handy calculator that I found for calc. barrel, tube and pyramid volumes, very nice conversion calc in there too!

http://abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/

HIH...

[SET Man]

Hi Lonewolf

... Mine have a proper 90 degree bend, so Im not left with the superfluous piece above the driver ...

Luigi,

You must have really big pipe there with the 206

What you called the "superfluouse piece above the driver" on my "Pipe dream" dose have purpose. This design is called the "Voight Pipe." By placing the dirver about 1/3  (1/4 down in my case, ain't perfect but works. There is no set rule on this) from the stopped end of the pipe this will help kill the pipe's fundamental frequnecy that other wise would cause the one-note bass. Well, there is more but it would be too long.

So, I guess that make your speaker a "tranmission line" design. Of cause they are all related. A good designed T-line will also sound good. But when is come to Single Driver/High eff speaker I feel that the "Voight Pipe", Horn loaded and TQWT sound better with better low definition.

The sad part of my Pipe Dream is that each of the top T section cost for then the 90 degree corner and almost half the price of the driver.

Those drivers are 3" Tang Bands. Not high eff or go very low. I think I got them down full to 80hz and still useful to almost 60hz. Not bad for a 3" driver with fs of 100hz eh? They sound excellent for the price and my intented purpose... a TV speakers. To see more just click on my "gallery" link below.

Anyway, have fun with your speaker. I'm not a fan of smaller 4" Jordan but Fostex are excellent speaker. If you have spare time you might want to try build them a TQWT or Voight Pipe. Than you might not want to get Jordan after that

Buddy

PS

Lonewolf/Chris. I think I will you at the next Rave... let see if Levi could give me a ride there.
 

[lonewolfny42]

SET Man :

Lonewolf/Chris. I think I will see you at the next Rave... let see if Levi can give me a ride there.

[/list:u]

Great....I'm sure Levi can give you a ride...your close by. [/list:u]

[Luigi]

Buddy

You're probably right about the Voigt pipes and TQWT designs (though I am somewhat impressed with bass output at this early stage) but such designs are more imposing, and I (think I) know how much I can get away with.

She who rants in my general direction distinctly dislikes the tall/coffin look, though looked pale and nauseous when she first saw the toilet pipes (periscopes) in the office. I laid them on her at a weak moment when we'd had a few wines, so I was pretty sure she would just sigh or cry rather than hit or idle-threaten me!

Anyway, I'm so impressed with the Fostex I was thinking of trying out the Decware drivers, modified FE206's, as detailed here:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/fe206em.htm

These are meant to overcome the slightly shelved treble response.
Have you heard these, or know of anyone who has?

Cheers

Luigi

[Levi]

Here is a good finished setup.  Note the placement of the tweets.

[JoshK]

Can I ask a serious question from you full ranger/SET ampers?  Do you all listen to young girl with a guitar in a small jazz club music or do you actually play large scale rock and orchestral stuff too?

[SET Man]

...Do you all listen to young girl with a guitar in a small jazz club music ...?

Hi Josh,

  That's funny Well, the answer is yes and more! Sure I also listen to other kind of music. Right now mostly pop and electronic/trip-hop. Of cause with a young girl with guitar singing it would sound intoxicating through SET+FR speaker for sure

Most but not all SET+FR system could do well with lager scale music too. Depending on the size of the driver and room.  But don't expect deep low bass like those system with big woofer 10"+ or high SPL like we did at the Rave... but then again who listen to that high SPL all the time.

I think it is time for you to listen to one Since Mark Maloof want to hear my system. So I'm taking this opotunity of doing Mini-Rave. I wanted to do it this Sun but something came up So, I'm thinking of the Sat 26th or Sun 27th.

I will post and invitation when I know for sure.

Buddy

[JoshK]

hate pop, but love trip hop.... listen to Prodigy's new one, Girls for example at 85db SPL....that'll give your speaks a work out.

[lonewolfny42]

hate pop, but love trip hop.... listen to Prodigy's new one, Girls for example at 85db SPL....that'll give your speaks a work out.

Good choice Prodigy. Is on par with "Firestarter" ?

[Luigi]

Levi

Interesting your comment about the tweeter placement.

My Adire HE10s had a dual concentric horn-loaded tweeter, but it was clear within a short time that the tweeter was crap, and I replaced it with a Fostex FE17H or somesuch. Very much better, but I couldn't get the damn thing to stick to the central back of the 10" Eminence driver. So in frustration I externalised it at the 12-00 position.

Again, this enclosure is a PVC tube, but with the driver centralised on the end cap.

To cut long boring story short, could not get them to sound quite right. One day, I was messing around with positioning, and recalled how ProAc offset its tweeters. So I did the same, rotating the enclosure around so the tweeters were at 10-oo. Presto, the staging came right, and the odd imaging suddenly snapped into place. Until the Fostex FE206E floorstanders came along, I was very happy with this set up.

Luigi

[SET Man]

Buddy

You're probably right about the Voigt pipes and TQWT designs (though I am somewhat impressed with bass output at this early stage) but such designs are more imposing, and I (think I) know how much I can get away with.

She who rants in my general direction distinctly dislikes the tall/coffin look, though looked pale and nauseous when she first saw the toilet pipes (periscopes) in the office. I laid them on her at a weak moment when we'd had a few wines, so I was pretty sure she would just sigh o ...

Luigi,

   I only have seen the Decaware 206 moded driver on thier site. I found it very interesting. A hollow phase plug It might work.

But there is no need to buy a new set of driver. You could put a phase plug in those Fostex that you have now. Just like I did!

  Very simple just cut out the dust cap with a Xacto kife. Be very ver careful. From my exprience, after removing the dust cap the high sound cleaner and clearer but even more beamy

   This is where a phase plug come in. You could go to Fostex site and down load pdf file spec of your driver and it will tell you the size of the voic coil. Use that as a reference and than look at the pole piece inside do your best to see how much smaller then the voice coil.

 Than take that measurment and fine yourself a round wood piece. Cut to lenght, this is up to you first try one lenght that extend far enough to the edge of the speaker. For my 6" Fostex 167E with 1" VC I use 7/8" acrylic rod about 2" in lenght. Seem to work well. You could even try what Decawear did. Find  copper tube, plumping store should have some and try them!

Too bad I did not know about the hollow phase plug before I permanently guled my phase plug in. Would love to try them but too late now

As far as TQWT they don't have to be big. Look at what Levi post. Those are Cain & Cain Abby. They are not hard to do and not big at all but they are tall. Will work well in small to medium room. I think bass should go down to full 50hz and lower.

Anyway, have fun and by the way can you post picture of your speaker?

Buddy

[Luigi]

Levi

Your speakers look smarter than mine. Much.

What tweeters are those, and if Fostex, how do you find them and how are they crossed over? At what point and with what cap?

Josh K

Funny you should ask about music played through the full range speakers. I have only had mine a few days, but have been playing girls and guys with lone guitar at jazz club, eg, Jolie Holland, Greg Brown. It's intoxicating because it's like they are there, and the connection to the musical sentiment or intent is pretty gush-worthy.

But have also branched out and found not so much bass with stuff that's bass heavy, like Unitone Hifi. I can now tell very much more clearly whether or not something is well recorded and why, if it is poorly recorded, exactly why. Which means the imaging and the staging must be very much better.  

I have now started playing the sort of alt rock like Pinback that I have on high rotation currently (I'd love to see these guys live) but the trip-hop and electronica stuff that normally takes a beating comes across well, if somewhat lightweight at present. Given these speakers aren't yet three days old Im not concerned about bass. What worries me more is whether the sub will keep up.

Luigi