Why is no one doing this?

bubba966 · « **on:** 19 Mar 2003, 07:16 pm »

Was just thinking with all of the DIY speaks & amps around, why don't I see anyone combining the two?

Why not drop an AKSA 100w into a 1801, A/V 1+, Criterion, etc?

Or any other amp into any other DIY speaker?

Seems to me there's be several advantages in doing so. Wouldn't have to buy a case for the amp. Could completely bipass binding posts and wire the speaker straight to the amp. could use a much shorter speaker cable with no connectors.

nathanm · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 07:35 pm »

I agree, powered speakers seem like a very logical idea. But don't forget who we're dealing with here. Audiophiles and logic are not two terms heard often in the same sentence unless prefixed with the letters "ill".

Well, for one you'd miss out on the sheer fun of swapping cables, the total excitement gained from isolating and damping components from vibration (taking them out of the frying pan and putting them into the fire, really) and you'll have less cool shiny things on the 'ol rack.

So I'm curious; does everyone think that NO speaker wire is the best speaker wire or do you guys think those exciting HUGE tonal differences are an advantage?

markC · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 09:08 pm »

A friend of mine is in the middle of constucting a pair of diy 3 way speaks. The woofer will be powered by a 250 watt sub woofer amp and the mid and tweet by a remote amp. He's making them for his brother and wants to test them out on my rig for a while b4 he hands them over. O.K! Should be interesting. They're gonna end up costing about a grand, with the high powered woofs and planar tweets. They had better sound good for that kinda money!

Carlman · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 09:23 pm »

I think it would be neat to see that comparison. (AKSA inside an Ellis vs. AKSA outside of Ellis) I also think putting an amp inside a speaker isn't an ideal place.

I think the question is sort of like asking why don't people stop using DAC's and start putting them in the transport?

Putting the amp inside the speaker would be complex and limiting to have that setup. I don't necessarily enjoy finding the right speaker cable for my setup but, I would definitely not enjoy having to take apart my speaker if the amp starts having a problem.... or if I got a great deal on a better one... or if I needed to sell them... etc.

If I were buying the end/all be/all speaker/amp combo with no chance of ever selling or changing it, then maybe but sort of.... Even then, I'd wire straight from the amp output to the speaker's crossover to give some isolation of equipment. Plus, I think longer speaker wire is better than long IC wire. (which I know is debatable)

-Carl

bob82274 · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 10:34 pm »

Also one problem is that some people like to change their amps and speakers a lot. Kinda limits habit doesn't it? I still think it might be a good idea though.

JohnR · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 10:42 pm »

DIYers do put amps inside speakers.

They're usually called subwoofers

bubba966 · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 10:45 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

DIYers do put amps inside speakers.

They're usually called subwoofers

Yeah, I know that.

But why is no one doing it with DIY monitors?

Why is it perfectly fine for a sub to be powered, but powered monitors are a rareity?

Some of the nicest monitors I've ever heard were powered studio monitors.

jesserparker · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 11:40 pm »

putting an amp inside your speaker is opening the floodgates to a lot of problems. first off, as you mention it would only really be feasable or logical with a DIY amplifier that didn't already have a case and connectors, etc. well, especially with a DIY amp you are going to be making mods to it, swapping out parts, and probably need to redo some things, and also a lot of testing and whatnot before its "complete", and opening up your speaker every time to do it isn't going to be much fun

second, the amp is then succeptible to some pretty nasty vibrations from the drivers, and depending on its position, also to some considerable magnetic fields. putting it inside the speaker enclosure kinda limits your ability to try different isolation methods on it which is then REALLY counterproductive to subject the amp to a lot more vibrations, and also dissallow yourself any way to try and fight them.

also, you're going to be subjecting your preamp to some pretty nasty capacitive loads when they have to drive the speaker wire length interconnects you will need for this to work. on that same line, if you are worried about signal paths and keeping them as short as possible, i would worry more about ANY length of wire between your pre and power amp, than that between the power amp and speakers; making it far more logical to carry out your idea in an integrated pre/power amp, than integrated loudspeaker/power amplifier. so really, any idea that forces you to use seperate pre and power amps, especially with long ICs between them won't offer any inherrent advantage when coupled with the short signal path from the amp to the speaker.

this works out all right with a subwoofer because the vibrations induced to the amp are going to affect mainly things like imaging and clarity and the like, and for omnidirectional tones like those the sub is putting out, that isn't so very important. especially since it is almost always running in mono.

the idea of keeping signal paths short is always a good one, but offers some serious trade offs that need be taken into account i feel. otherwise you could easily take this idea to the extreme, keep all signal paths as short as possible and wind up with the "ultimate in audiophilia".....

the boom box.

later...

JohnR · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Mar 2003, 12:24 am »

By the way, Adire Audio sells plate amps for building (multi-amped) monitors:

http://www.adireaudio.com/diy_audio/amplifiers/active_home.htm

A big drawback of the active speaker idea to me is just the logistics of building the amp into the speaker box, which this solves nicely. I think I might be inclined to use a pair of those if I happened to find the right application. Showing my audiophile biases here but that to me that would be where I have a well-defined need that an active speaker would suit but I'm not (for good or for bad) trying to do the "best" system or expecting to do any further tweaking.

audioengr · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Mar 2003, 03:38 am »

A major disadvantage to this, IME, is that each speaker needs a line-cord in addition to long interconnects. Long IC's I do NOT recommend for anyone. If the IC's were digital, this would be less of a problem, but plugging into every AC outlet in a room usually means different circuits which results in ground-loops, big ones. A noise disaster. This could be solved, I suppose, if the amps were not grounded.

So, the only high-end solution, IMO, is digital IC's with ungrounded amps at each speaker.

Tyson · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Mar 2003, 05:10 am »

Sort of like what meridian does with their digital speakers, where the DAC and amp are located in the speaker itself, and the preamp just does switching and volume.

Kishore · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Mar 2003, 09:52 am »

Meridian, Pass Labs, AvantGarde are companies which come to my mind which build speakers containing amps.

Cheers,
Kishore

BlackCat · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Apr 2003, 09:25 pm »

Yeah, check out the Pass Labs Rushmore...20 - 40Khz frequency response, Class A amps inside, 300 lbs, and $45000!

www.passlabs.com/pdf/rushmore.pdf