Greetings - And Resource Ping

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 365 times.

penguinpages

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
  • penguinpages
Greetings - And Resource Ping
« on: 3 Oct 2020, 12:27 pm »
Greetings from out in the North Atlanta GA area.

Moved years ago from up Cleveland area...  And after a few years...  and kids... and fixing house... Turning to do a fun project.

Goal:  Turn an 11' x 18' room in basement into my office / audio room: (in order of importance)

1) High quality
2) Loud :) but I also listen to everything from Metal to Classic, Jazz to (some) pop...
3) Built in.  I make my own cabinets (Not just audio.. I mean kitchen / display etc... so tools are not an issue) It needs look / hide, integrated like a display cabinet
4) It needs to pass the wife test of "not a speaker room for just that purpose.. So wall coverings / noise reduction etc have to be integrated or hidden
5) It has to also have secondary ability, to play 5:1 surround movies.. but this is ONLY afterthought to use of room.

I am working on Google Sketchup to  toss out room diagram and structures against which others can provide input.  I am 100% ok with being told RTFM (so long as the link to the FM is provided).
Audio when I did audio as a teenager was to be loud and have fun. Now I want to layer quality into that

Budget... Meh...I need to do some research .. and scrounge money..  I have small annoying child or two for sale.. so that may help..

Ask:
1) I need a North Atlanta resource for MDF 1" + wood.  I have googled around and called a few places and NOTHING :(
2) Much of adding Quality to "Loud and FUN".. of this build .. AND that I am making boxes into a cabinet means I can't ship them.. Which then means I have to do any / all tuning and subsequent crossover adjustment in the actual room.. I see no posting of / if it is feasible and how to collect the data that then could feed into recommendations for crossover components / speaker adjustments.  Is this even an option?  Record output from defined set of audio tests and send it to someone to then make recommendations of room / box / crossover changes?

Thanks




FullRangeMan

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20091
  • To whom more was given more will be required.
    • Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a straycat or dog. On the street they live only two years average.
Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #1 on: 3 Oct 2020, 09:46 pm »
Welcome

Phil A

Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #2 on: 4 Oct 2020, 03:45 am »
Welcome!

Phil A

Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #3 on: 4 Oct 2020, 03:46 am »
Have you tried place like 84 Lumber?

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10674
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #4 on: 4 Oct 2020, 11:54 am »
Welcome!

Would the audio setup be along the 11ft or 18ft wall?  (11ft seems a bit narrow for audio and very narrow for HT.)  Bigger is better, as long as a proper shape is maintained.  Will the room be enjoyed by more than just you (all but impossible to achieve proper multi-loudspeaker balance in a room that narrow for multiple listeners if set up along the 11ft wall). 

I have an 8ft x 13ft x 21ft dedicated audio (first priority)/office (second priority) that was included when we built the house 15 years ago.  It was done on a budget with lots of research.  Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=floyd+toole+sound+reproduction&ref=nb_sb_noss) the consummate audiophile guide for how loudspeaker/subwoofers behave in-room. 

Highlights of the room:

1.) Shape follows Fibonacci ratios (http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php).
2.) Insulated staggered stud interior walls (even though they adjoin storage spaces).
3.) Insulated fiberglass exterior door with weather seal.
4.) Insulated flexible ductwork (can barely hear the furnace).
5.) Setup is mid-field along 13ft wall with loudspeakers 5.5ft from front wall.
6.) Use three carefully located subwoofers to reduce bass peaks/dips (see Toole).
7.) Use ten GIK (see them here at Audio Circle) 2ft x 4ft 244 absorption panels (they have many decorative options).
8.) Use  three tall randomly filled bookcases on side walls as crude diffusion.
9.) Topped off with <500 Hz Dirac room correction. 
10.) Ran separate 20 amp circuits to each of three 20 amp cryo'd hospital grade receptacles and grounded them together, separate from the house.

Floor is thin wall-to-wall carpet on concrete slab (highly recommended).  Walls/ceiling painted drywall.  My downfall was the ceiling.  Builder refused to install floating drywall ceiling and I'd specified recessed can light fixtures (air tight, rated to be in contact with insulation).  Even with 12 inches of insulation batts sound transmits up and down.  But the initial impression was that the room was spooky quiet (have gotten used to it now). 
Recommend wall sconces and floating the ceiling if below living spaces. 

Dirac, or REW (Room Equalization Wizard) can measure then adjust overall response.  No need for outside audio consultants.  Most suggest limiting adjustments to under 500 Hz and only apply after use of multiple subwoofers and room treatments. 

Can't recommend DIY loudspeakers.  Modern state of the science loudspeakers only come from a few companies, those with deep R&D and in-house manufacturing resources like Focal, JBL, or Dynaudio that are active designs (one channel of amplification per driver).  Passive designs from some guy working out of his shed are crude, way under performing, and antique in comparison. 

penguinpages

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
  • penguinpages
Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #5 on: 4 Oct 2020, 01:21 pm »

Thanks for the reply  and just as important the FM.

I have always had some pieces of theory, but never put things together.

My biggest concern is that I build the boxes,  then the cabinets around them.. and they look nice but sound bad.   The other concern is where even today, when wife is away and I play music... lets just say the dishes upstairs have made some moves my wife does not appreciate.

So the way I build the cabinets "around" the speaker system will have to be very unique I think.   

As for ceiling.  I will just share a clip if it lets me where I think I solved. That.  It was wife's idea actually... where I hate drop ceilings.. they look cheep.  I hate finished ceilings in basement due to lack of maintenence  Soo... Below is a design, using cheap kickboard and molding , and make a coffered ceiling.  The sheets up top are drywall sheets painted in the picture.. just laying their.. so I can move and get to infrastructure. 



For this room those will instead use to felt covered Fiber board (noted by Danny Richie on one of his talks)  and on top of that , insulation to deaden noise more.  It will also (I think.. ) break up the wound waves going towards ceiling.




As it is basement, Floor will be "wood looking Ceramic" (wife's style pick and I respect that), so it will just be thick carpet.   I will make some "wall art" that I have seen where it is the triangle board overlaid with thin cotton screen that you can paint.. ( will post once I find that link again).


Back wall where cabinets will be is 11' (drawings coming soon.. and is fired out today but behind is Cement wall... so may pull furing off)  the other walls are all standard 10' ceiling studded.  Door is on far side of wall (4' French doors).

"..Dirac, or REW (Room Equalization Wizard) can measure then adjust overall response.  No need for outside audio consultants..."  THat is the best news I heard.  My A$$umption is that I need a mic and computer.. Hoping software is "free", or I can bribe someone with it to use recording matrix to map.   Mic suggestions that I need to purchase?

Last note from post is "..Can't recommend DIY loudspeakers..."  -> Does this mean can be recoommended?  or ... to build a 100DB+ range system that has flat line frequency quality (within $$ reason) is not attainable? 


I am working on various work and home projects.. so If I disappear for a few days or week on forum response.. my apologies, ya'll recommendations are appreciated.



JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10674
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #6 on: 4 Oct 2020, 01:56 pm »
By the way, have found that equipment racks between the main loudspeakers blocks part of the soundstage.  Even small racks against the front wall do this.  So my system consists of main loudspeakers, three subwoofers, and a NAD M10 (one compact box streamer, DAC, preamp, power amp).  So I see little purpose in lots of cabinetry, either between the mains, or otherwise effectively making the room even smaller.

penguinpages

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
  • penguinpages
Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #7 on: 4 Oct 2020, 04:35 pm »

Here is quick diagram.

Cabinet along 11' side.

Audience:  Me.. and my voices (maybe a friend... but its all about me :)

Cabinets are just to make a place for storage, amps / etc..  hidden. As well as place to store things not related to this project (I am computer guy by trade and need drawers etc..). Goal is to make it look like cabinet with drawers and store things..OH.. and hidden butt kickn' speaker system.

I know room size is smaller..  I know reverb and deflection will be issue... and I can't line walls with soft materials (wife is right that this can't be a "nerd only room"... but I can so things to help (as noted with hangings and ceiling / floor.

Within those constrains..  I will have to work.

Questions I have to research:
1) Which speakers will give me full / flat quality range with 100Db. And in which combination:  Initial total swag 2boxes of : 1 x 10" (down lower in box isolated in own air space and ported ?front :( ? ...   4 x mid and 1 tweeter) Two way design... maybe three ... need RTFM.
2) (After knowing roughly which kit speaker to purchase)... What is the size of box. I can make it ANY size.. / port / shape etc.. but constrains are that they "look like part of cabinet" and up against wall (no back port) , open air baffle only out one side if that is even feasable etc..)
3) Speakers in corner... As I am making boxes.. I was debating cantering speaker direction 15 degree so that though the box front is flat, the speakers direcctionally are facing "center of room. This just means when I router inlay of speakers to inset them at angles .. or some such thing. 
4) At what height will each speaker be optimal at:  10" down low .. but port out front is going to be problematic (I have built bandpass boxes but considering transmission line design if that eliminates some of the porting issue air movement issues of the room)
5) Do I strip firing away from walls so I can mount / attach / anchor the box to concrete wall or is it better to leave it.  My concern is tranference of sound through wall structure to rest of house.  Isolation means where sound in room not out to rest of house.


First steps of a journey... this could be fun... or a massive waste of money... so DYI researching phase  and appreciate candid response from those who have walked those paths before me.











ArthurDent

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 15476
  • Don't Panic / Mostly Harmless
Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #8 on: 6 Oct 2020, 02:27 am »
Greetings & Welcome to AC penguinpages   :thumb: 

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10674
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Greetings - And Resource Ping
« Reply #9 on: 6 Oct 2020, 01:38 pm »
100 dB ain't tough, in fact my non-headbanger criteria is 105-110 dB peaks to reflect live music levels.  Some say instantaneous peaks go up to 130 dB, but that's insane in my book.  Do you have a sound pressure level (spl) meter, or smart phone app to know what various spls sound like?  Most audiophiles do serious listening at 85 dB average spl.  Permanent hearing loss/pain can start at long exposures to just 85 dB.  I wear protection while mowing. 

Flat (in-room) response 20-20,000 Hz is tougher, at what tolerance are you willing to accept?  Many use a +/- 3 dB range.  But in-room bass from loudspeakers can have 30 dB peaks/dips.  Suggest putting down the tools and read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" as it's the consummate audiophile guide for how loudspeakers and subwoofers behave in-room. 

Hidden amps should be class D to avoid overheating.

Corner mounted speakers will tend to boom bass and not properly develop soundstage/imaging (the premise for stereo).  Nearly everyone places loudspeakers away from walls/corners.  My loudspeakers are 5.5ft from front wall and 1.5ft from side walls.  Freestanding loudspeakers allow for less bass boom, better imaging, the flexibility to adjust angle (toe-in), and far less vibration transference to the rest of the structure. 

If you're set on building loudspeakers into built-in cabinetry definitely build the cabinets around the loudspeaker requirements, not the other way around if you value sound quality over other considerations.

Most desire to have tweeters mounted close to seated ear height. 

REW, Dirac, or any other room measurement/correction will require a microphone (hopefully a calibrated one).

To be brutally honest most go for good looking loudspeaker cabinets/finishes first and how they might sound in their room secondly.