Poll

Do you think that some form of EQ (this might include parametric EQ but possibly other varieties too) would be a valuable addition to the SP1.7?

Yes, and if the SP1.7 doesn't acquire some kind of EQ after the DSP upgrade I won't buy one (or I will sell my existing one) for that reason alone.
7 (21.2%)
It would be a VERY useful addition, though not absolutely make-or-break.
9 (27.3%)
It'd be nice, but I don't feel very strongly about it.
4 (12.1%)
It's of no use to me at all.
9 (27.3%)
If some form of EQ is added to the SP1.7 then that, to my mind, will make it a worse product, not better.
4 (12.1%)

Total Members Voted: 33

Voting closed: 3 Mar 2005, 04:52 pm

Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?

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nicolasb

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Historically the discussion of EQ on the SP1.7 has tended to focus exclusively on the notion of "room EQ" i.e. attempting to compensate electronically for acoustic issues in the listening room. James T has, in the past, always come down as very strongly opposed to room EQ, with his most important reason (IIRC) being that a system based on (say) parametric EQ can only improve listening conditions at one particular point in the room, and is just as likely to make the sound worse at other places in the room.

This is a reasonable objection as far as it goes, but I nonetheless diagree with James' stance :) for three very important reasons:

1) It seems to me that the majority of processor customers out there do not agree. They like room EQ. After they've been exposed to room EQ on another processor they say things like "I can't imagine ever listening to a processor without room EQ again". I think failing to add an EQ system to the SP1.7, even a crude one, could be commercially very damaging. You may regard all these people as misguided, but you can't explain to all of them individually why they're wrong, and it may be necessary to add some kind of EQ system simply to avoid being the only processor on the market that doesn't have one. (See also "THX Certification" :mrgreen:).

2) It is a mistake to think purely in terms of parametric EQ being used to obtain a flat room curve. There are now a number of room EQ systems in existence which are specifically designed to produce benefits over a wide listening area.

The Tag LcLaren system, TMREQ, is, I think, pretty much just a parametric EQ/flat frequency curve system. Even so, many Tag owners love it.

The system used by Meridian is, again, a parametric EQ system, but the aim is not to flatten the loudness/frequency curve, but to ensure constant reverberation times at all frequencies up to a couple of hundred Hertz. This is achieved by using very narrow, shallow "notch" filters at frequency response peaks: in essence, it's spoiling the Q of the resonator. One of the stated aims of this system is eliminate room nulls as well as room maxima by preventing standing waves from building up in the first place.

I'm not familiar with the internals of the Lexicon room EQ system, but the simple fact that, to set it up, you use four microphones spread out around the room rather than just one tells you that it is designed to improve listening across a wide area.

Another interesting-sounding system is MultEQ, a software system made by some people called Audyssey Labs.
Quote
Audyssey MultEQ automatically eliminates the frequency response distortions introduced by the acoustical environment and is the only method that optimizes system performance for all listeners in a room simultaneously.
The reason this is interesting is that their software was specifically developed to run on Texas Instruments DSP chips - such as the Aureus chip that the SP1.7 is about to be upgraded to.

3) There are an awful lot of other things you can use EQ for besides room EQ. For example:

i) You may be able to flatten the output of a loudspeaker. A speaker may produce a constant output to within +/- 2dB across its specified frequency range, but that makes for a difference of 4dB between the loudest and softest points (potentially). Judicious use of EQ could make the speaker output flat - that certainly would benefit all listeners.

ii) Another possiblity is that it could be used to improve tonal matching between not-quite-identical centre/front speakers. In my system, for example, the HTM1 centre is detectably brighter than the 803 fronts. Gentle use of graphical or parametric EQ could improve the match.

iii) It can be used as a less-crude version of the existing bass-limiter if you're listening late at night and you don't want to wake up your neighbours with sub-bass explosions.

iv) The source may be able to (partially) compensate for a weakness in the recording. When watching an old film with a muffled soundtrack on my old TV I used to turn up the treble to make the dialogue clearer - now I don't have that option. (Even if you're not the sort of person who messes with tone controls, you've probably at least occasionally done a visual version of this - adjusted brightness and contrast controls for an old, poor DVD transfer).

v) People like me who have different degrees of hearing loss at different frequencies can boost speech-frequencies to make dialogue more audible without deafening themselves even more when things blow up.

And of course all of these examples are based purely on parametric EQ. Another very important point is that there are other forms of EQ. Thomaspf, for example, has argued very articulately on several occasions for loudness correction. This is a system that (please correct me if I'm wrong, Thomas!) adjusts the sound spectrum depending on the volume. Any given speaker is designed to sound best at a particular decibel level, and any given film soundtrack is designed to sound correct at a particular playback volume. Turn the volume up or down and it doesn't just sound louder or quieter, it sounds different in other ways too, because of the way the ear/brain system works. Loudness correction ensures that (e.g.) a film mixed to be played back at 85dB still sounds "right" at 75 dB.

And there are many other possiblities too.

All-in-all, I think that some kind of EQ system, even if it isn't specifically intended to perform room EQ, is necessary rather than merely desirable. I hope other people will agree.

thomaspf

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #1 on: 3 Mar 2005, 06:20 pm »
Now this is an interesting topic. I have over the last couple of weeks played around with a Behringer DEQ2496 in front of my SP1.7 to tame some nasty low frequency resonances in my room.

This has been an interesting learning experience and had a profound impact on my overall sound. I can confidently state that careful room correction <300Hz is not just optimizing the sound in a few room locations but is highly useful in particular if you can only apply limited room treatments and are elimited for the speaker location.


The hard part is to actually make this work in a semi-automatic method. The automatic eq that is built into the DEQ2496 is useless for the bass so I ended up playing around with a myriad of PC based tools.


The result was that I had to move my speakers before I could make any reasonable eq work. After talking this over with some of the audio gurus at work they believe this is more common than not. So unlike some of the room correction systems shipping today I think some hybrid mode that helps you position the speakers in the room first and then smoothes out the frequency response/decay time similar to the meridian approach would be great. There is btw. an AES paper on that approach.

Moving the sepakers and applying careful eq has dramaticaly improved the sound in my room. Also the integration of my subwoofer is much smoother at this point.

Cheers

    Thomas

Levi

Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #2 on: 3 Mar 2005, 06:39 pm »
I'd rather not have an EQ.  EQ can further degrade sound specially if you don't know what you are doing.   :lol:

thomaspf

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #3 on: 3 Mar 2005, 07:54 pm »
Yes, you definitely do not want the user to have a chance to mess this up.

I repeat my point. The biggest improvement in sound came from finding a better position for the speakers in my room and playing with room treatments. You need some form of analyzer for that even if you do not intend to do any eq at all.

Unfortunately it will be quite tricky to display information about room dips and reflections on the small SP1.7 screen.

Another view on this is that most digial sources will be some form of a computer over the next few years and the room correction could happen at the source level.

Cheers

   Thomas

nicolasb

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #4 on: 4 Mar 2005, 10:49 am »
An obvious possibility would be a kit for a PC: plug a microphone into your sound card (either an SPL meter or a special supplied one) then use the PC to produce the necessary signals, capture the results, do all the necessary calculations, and then feed the results back to the processor via RS232.

I believe more recent versions of Tag McLaren room EQ actually work like this.

Thomas, how did you find the sound quality of the Behringer device? And were you using it as a pure-digital EQ, or capturing an analogue signal?

For the benefit of those who aren't familiar with acoustics: moving speakers around the room could certainly produce some quite significant benefits if done precisely enough, although it's not an easy calculation to make. If you put a speaker at a point where a standing wave is loudest, i.e. where the air pressure variation is the greatest and the air movement the smallest, then this will tend to excite that standing wave more. If you put the speaker where the air movement is greatest and the pressure changes the smallest (hence, where the sound is quietest) then the standing wave will not be excited so much.

It's for this reason that you should never put most speakers, and particularly not subwoofers, against the wall or (worse still) in the corner of the room. Unfortunately, different standing waves have their maxima and minima at different points all over the room, so it's not as simple as putting the sub in the middle of the room (in fact that's a pressure maximum/movement minimum for the second harmonic). The best quick way to position a subwoofer is to stick it in the corner, play pink noise through it, then the find the place in the room where the sound is quietest and put the subwoofer there.

But of course you can't put all the speakers in the room in the same place. :)

Changing position of speakers can have either benefits too. In particular, it can reduce the number of ways that the sound can reach your ears by direct reflection off the walls. If, for example, the right hand speaker can reflect off the left wall (or vice versa) and reach your ear then it messes up the stereo imaging.

The best solution to acoustic problems will always be an acoustic one, of course: minimise wall reflections by covering the walls with acoustic foam, put bass traps in the corners, etc. But this can be alarmingly expensive (have you seen the price of Auralex foam in the UK?!) and that's before you start to consider WAF ("Wife Acceptance Factor"). Most husbands can barely persuade their wives to let them clutter up the front room with bulky speakers and amplifiers - what's going to happen if they want to stick strange-shaped pieces of foam rubber all over the walls? People like that need an electronic solution.

thomaspf

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #5 on: 4 Mar 2005, 10:10 pm »
I have been using the Behringer only in the digital domain. Their older models required some upgrades to do that but this particular model has both analog and digital inputs/outputs.

I have ony played shortly with the analog output section and that circuit is not in the league of the SP1.7 or any other higher end DAC. I understand from reading some reports on the the net that the input might also have limited resolution.

As to sound quality of the filters I am not quite done setting this up. I struggled to get consistent results until someone gave me the hint that I am probably comparing a mono signal for sweeps with a stereo version for pink noise or the MLS impulses. After cleaning this up and doing an initial tuning which turns out to be completely different for the L&R speakers in my highly asymmetric room the sound is completely different.

I got the low frequency room modes under control but I have neither done enough critical listening nor recorded the eq signal to have a look of how much damage these filters do outside the intended frequency range <300Hz. If you have an interesting test signal that I should run through this I'd be happy to send you the result. I won't sound good on your system but you could look a the impact the DSP code has on the signal.


My hunch at this point is that the quality is pretty decent. The older Behringer boxes used 24 bit fixed point arithmetic for the filters while this newer unit uses Sharc DSP with 32bit float filters. I don't believe that Behringer ended up implementing teor own filters so the quality would determined by the libraries that Analog Devices ships with their SDK. This is certainly not a WEISS eq unit but it is $299.

Cheers

    Thomas

madders

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #6 on: 6 Mar 2005, 02:41 pm »
Interesting thread! From my point of view, it's the only thing (once there has been a DSP update  :wink:  ) that is making me look elsewhere for my imminent processor purchase. I would really like to have EQ.

Thanks,

Steve

nicolasb

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #7 on: 11 Mar 2005, 01:30 pm »
Well, out of 14 votes so far that's 9 strongly in favour of EQ, 2 slightly in favour, 2 "don't cares" and 1 against. Anyone else want to vote?

nicolasb

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #8 on: 4 Apr 2005, 02:06 pm »
Quote from: levi
I'd rather not have an EQ. EQ can further degrade sound specially if you don't know what you are doing.

You could always switch it off, of course!  8)

Well, I figure this thread deserves one final bump up to the top of the list before it is crushed beneath the accumulated weight of months of wisdom on top of it. :)

(bump)

James T, has anyone said anything in this thread that has persuaded you to shift your ground at all on the subject of EQ (e.g. all of the uses for it that do not pertain to room correction)?

Btw, that's now 15 in favour of EQ, 2 against it, and 4 abstentions. :)

ScottMayo

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #9 on: 15 Apr 2005, 08:32 pm »
Quote from: thomaspf
Yes, you definitely do not want the user to have a chance to mess this up.

I repeat my point. The biggest improvement in sound came from finding a better position for the speakers in my room and playing with room treatments. You need some form of analyzer for that even if you do not intend to do any eq at all. ...


Build it in, and turn it off by default. If the buyer wants it - and those that want it will want it very badly - they will be happy to turn it on and get at it via the serial link.

You can do a lot with room treatments - that's great for hacking down "humps" in the frequency response. But it's not so easy to correct dips that way - and dips can be caused by speakers, rooms, all sorts of things. EQ is a great solution for a difficult problem.

As to EQ making the room awful everywhere but the sweet spot, well, that's why I sit in the sweet spot. If I have some twisted urge to have a lot of people in the room with me, I could turn off EQ, right?

nicolasb

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #10 on: 14 Sep 2005, 09:53 am »
(bump)

The SP1.7 upgrade is now imminent, and it's 99.99% certain that it won't have any sort of EQ system. Judging by James Tanner's stance, it's 99% certain that it never will have, even in future software upgrades.

As a consequence, I shall probably be selling my SP1.7.

I thought perhaps I'd bump this thread up to the top of the forum one last time, just in case anyone else wants to chime in....

gazza982

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #11 on: 14 Sep 2005, 11:04 am »
Although we don't know the full spec of the new SP2 there is no mention of a HDMI connection either.

Are they simply moving to the new DSP board as the old one is no longer available?

I would rather put the cost of the upgrade towards a new processor as there appears to be nothing in this upgrade for me.

Hope we are wrong.

ScottMayo

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #12 on: 14 Sep 2005, 11:41 am »
Quote from: nicolasb
(bump)

The SP1.7 upgrade is now imminent, and it's 99.99% certain that it won't have any sort of EQ system. Judging by James Tanner's stance, it's 99% certain that it never will have, even in future software upgrades.

As a consequence, I shall probably be selling my SP1.7.


I'll probably end up in the same boat, though I will upgrade my SP1.7 first, price permitting. It's a generally capable unit (and will be a lot more capable when the bugs and speed problems are squashed out - in OSD mode it takes a long, long time to get anything done), but someday I want EQ - and it makes no sense to me to do EQ in one place and mode synthesis/THX/delay correction in another. If I'm going to process sound at all, I want it in one place, with one manufacturer I can chase down with issues and questions.

I'm a Bryston loyalist, so that's going to mark the end of an era, for me.

nicolasb

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #13 on: 15 Sep 2005, 02:40 pm »
Quote from: gazza982
Although we don't know the full spec of the new SP2 there is no mention of a HDMI connection either.

Since you posted this, there have been hints that there might eventually be an HDMI inoput added, but in a separate upgrade some time beyond this one.

Quote
Are they simply moving to the new DSP board as the old one is no longer available?

I have to say that the list of new features that are of any immediate use is rather small. Software upgrades via RS232 is nice, but hardly critical. Doing bass management properly (separate cross-over frequency for each pair of speakers) is very welcome (and will, I hope, eliminate the problem of the LFE channel being rolled off at 24dB per octave above the cross-over frequency). Dolby PLIIex is all very well, but I don't have a 7-speaker setup. And pretty much everything else that we've heard about so far seems to be supporting high-bitrate audio formats for which there is absolutely no source material available yet.

If the price of the upgrade does (as James T suggested the other day that it will) come out to be something similar to the price of upgrading an SP1 to an SP1.7, then I really can't see the point: better bass management is not worth well over $2000 US.

Quote from: ScottMayo
I'm a Bryston loyalist, so that's going to mark the end of an era, for me.

Yeah. Right there with you. :(

ScottMayo

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #14 on: 15 Sep 2005, 03:28 pm »
Quote from: nicolasb
I have to say that the list of new features that are of any immediate use is rather small.


One fix which I am very much looking forward to is bringing up the speed of the unit. I change processing modes all the time - Bypass for anything well recorded, 5.1 Bypass for two albums I have that support it, and various "processed up" modes for a variety of CD media that wasn't well recorded, or wants a subwoofer boost.

And changing modes on the SP1.7 takes way too long - when it's automated via the RS-232, each individual setting has to be tweaked individually, each taking fractions of a second. So the sound stops and restarts, over and over, while things "settle".

I should be able to get to any new mode in a tiny fraction of a second. I'm hoping the upgrade will get me there.

nicolasb

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #15 on: 15 Sep 2005, 04:00 pm »
I never really got into the "modes" - I just leave it on Dolby PLII Film all the time, and then use 2-channel bypass for CDs and 5.1-bypass for DVD-Audio. Simply storing the settings per-input is enough for me. (Sky+ digital out to Sat/TV, DVD Digital out to the DVD input, stereo analogue output from DVD player goes to CD, MP3 player output goes to AUX - also 2-channel bypass - and the Tape input is set to use 5.1 bypass - again coming from the DVD player).

I dare say that if the processor were to acquire a decent EQ system I would indulge in all sorts of much more complicated things. :)

ScottMayo

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #16 on: 15 Sep 2005, 04:49 pm »
Quote from: nicolasb
I never really got into the "modes" - I just leave it on Dolby PLII Film all the time, and then use 2-channel bypass for CDs and 5.1-bypass for DVD-Audio.


I've written an app for my laptop that lets me set the music mode (and everything else in the room) by clicking one button. It's convenient - I can click "CD+Stereo+Sub", and it will drive the Sp1.7 into digital input, CD in, Stereo, and also turn on the right amps, dim the lights in the room and so on. I click on VCR+Surround, and it retools everything again, including fading off the lights.

Really, really nice - except it can take upwards of three seconds to get all the modes set, and the sound gets flipped on and off as it gets there. It really showcases the slow speed of the processor - and since it's so easy to just click one button and get what I want, I put up with it alot.  :?

Bob15

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #17 on: 15 Sep 2005, 08:23 pm »
Does anybody know why Bryston isn't interested in EQ technology?  Could the likes of Meridian and Lexicon and Halcro and TCS and mass-produced manufacturers like Denon have it all wrong?

Levi

Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #18 on: 15 Sep 2005, 08:34 pm »
Quote from: Bob15
Does anybody know why Bryston isn't interested in EQ technology?  Could the likes of Meridian and Lexicon and Halcro and TCS and mass-produced manufacturers like Denon have it all wrong?


It also does not have video switching capabilities like others.  It does sounds more open much better in analog bypass mode compaired to Lexicon.  You probably already know here is the link http://www.bryston.ca/sp1memo.html.

MEMO: To All Bryston Customers
SUBJECT: SP-1.7 Philosophy

The SP-1.7 is a unique product, in that we decided very early on to optimize it for sound quality - either Analogue or Digital.

There is NO video switching on board as video switchers operate at very high RF frequencies which plays havoc with the noise floor of the audio. Video is also changing as we speak - composite vs S-video vs component vs Firewire etc. The other thing to remember is like amplifiers, video switchers have different quality levels and I think allowing the quality of the video switcher to match the rest of the system is better served with and outboard video switcher. We are planning on offering our own outboard video switcher (SPV-1) in the next year which will connect to the R232 port on the rear of the SP1.7. The other option available is to switch video at the TV or Projector as most TV's and projectors now have plenty of video connections provided internally and use a Universal Remote to switch audio and video together.

There are also NO Digital Power Supplies (2 toroides - 1 for analogue circuit and 1 for digital circuit) in the SP1.7 as the Digital switching supplies are also RF generators. The volume control has 2 parts to it - one analogue and one digital so analogue signals do not pass through any digital circuitry. Some processor's say 'bypass' but in fact use the DAC's to raise and lower the volume level. The movie recording standard in the industry at this point is 5.1/48Khz/24 Bit (in fact most movies are released in 44.1K/16Bit The DVD Video industry is 5.1/48K/24bit and as I understand it will remain that way because of the 'data rates' (9.6 Mbpersec maximum) available on DVD Video discs. In other words when you put Video and Audio on the same disc there is only so much storage and decoding speed available. Every major movie-scoring engineer I have discussed this with says that 5.1/48K/24bit is the recording standard used at this point and probably will remain so for a long time to come.

If we look at the DVD Audio side then there are standards, which include a number of options available to the recording engineer from 44khz up to 192khz or combinations thereof. Some DVD-A engineers I have spoke with say they may use very high resolution 192 in the front 2 channels for instance and lower resolution for center and surrounds (again because of the 'data rates' of the disc). Word at the studio level is that 96/24 will become the standard. The other issue is that all of the DVD Audio players and SACD players only offer 'Analogue Outputs' so what you really need is a 6 channel analogue preamp not a digital processor. Added to this complication is the fact that the 6 analogue outputs on the current DVD Audio players 'bypass' the bass management controls you have in your processor. The latest DVD players I have used have some bass management capability and I suspect this will become more common place in the future. The issue is that bass management has to be accomplished in the 'Digital' mode so processors that offer bass management from the 5.1 analogue outputs from DVD Audio and SACD players have to convert the analogue back to digital to do the bass management then back to analogue again to output to the amplifiers. Not a good idea.

Our assumption is once they solve the copy code issues (if ever) DVD Audio and SACD will offer some sort of digital bit stream out and then the processors could use the internal DACs to decoded them. The minimum number of connects to provide DVD Audio out will be 3 RCA type (because of the bandwidth required) and may in fact end up being some new type of connector all together (ex: Firewire).

The SP-1.7 was designed to provide state of the art 'audio' playback for 2 or 5.1 channel analogue playback or digital 5.1 to 7.1 movies. If you want state of the art sound you will certainly appreciate the SP-1.7.

Bob15

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Do SP1.7 owners (and potential SP1.7 owners) want EQ?
« Reply #19 on: 16 Sep 2005, 01:17 am »
Levi,

I get it.  Focus on audio quality; that's what Bryston does best.  Then why doesn't it explore its own implementation of EQ.  That's audio, not video.