New x5's a bargain at twice the price.

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TomS

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #40 on: 4 Nov 2020, 02:30 pm »
If I may ask, why did you get rid of the M2's?
Just a bit much physically for our only public living area in a smaller beach home. Active XO, 2 stereo amps, is also somewhat complex. The 708p's with all of that built-in would have been a better option, but I have a big dog and small active grandchildren, so stands are a no go.

skonger

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #41 on: 5 Nov 2020, 01:59 am »
Which ones have better dispersion? I'd like to share the soundstage with as many people as possible and am curious whether the M3 or X5 have a narrower/wider sweetspot?

Spatial Audio

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #42 on: 5 Nov 2020, 05:00 am »
Which ones have better dispersion? I'd like to share the soundstage with as many people as possible and am curious whether the M3 or X5 have a narrower/wider sweetspot?

The M3 Sapphire has wider dispersion that works well for multiple listeners. The X5 works well also, but purposely has narrower dispersion for less room engagement and sharper imaging.

Clayton

VistaBlue

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #43 on: 5 Nov 2020, 01:40 pm »
The M3 Sapphire has wider dispersion that works well for multiple listeners. The X5 works well also, but purposely has narrower dispersion for less room engagement and sharper imaging.

Clayton
Am I alone in wishing M3/M5 Sapphire had an optional powered woofer?

Audiosaurusrex

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #44 on: 5 Nov 2020, 01:47 pm »
Am I alone in wishing M3/M5 Sapphire had an optional powered woofer?
For me no need for a powered sub. These kick butt in the bass. I must say though I added serious room absorption and diffusion. That improved everything!

mrotino332

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #45 on: 5 Nov 2020, 01:52 pm »
In my opinion if you wanted a powered woofer then that is one of the primary reasons to go with the X3/X5.  That is the main reason I went with the X5 and I also wanted an 8 ohm load and less interaction with my room.  The dispersion on the AMT is still fairly good horizontally but the vertical dispersion is more limited.  I haven't noticed much change in sound when I'm off axis but typically it's only one or two people listening so I always sit in the middle/sweetspot.

Jean-Paul

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #46 on: 6 Nov 2020, 02:40 am »
Using the M4 Turbo S as a baseline for bass performance for the X Series is ludicrous. The leap in bass from the M4 turbo to the M3 turbo alone was massive. (Yes I auditioned the M4 TS and owned the M3 TS, so know from experience). And M3 turbo is nowhere near the bass performance of these new models. The M4 TS isn’t even designed to be a full range speaker for heaven’s sake!

Well, this is the first I've heard of this; I read all the reviews of the M4's and none of them said a subwoofer was anything like essential for full-range reproduction. And pretty well everybody said the bass was more than adequate for virtually any kind of music. But, as is constantly the way in the Audiophile World, history is constantly being revised as old models of every make, which were given rave reviews at the time, are suddenly found to have MAJOR shortcomings in retrospect. The M4's had a -3dB spec at something like 46Hz, if I remember correctly. But I'm waiting breathlessly for future raves about Clayton's next generation of speakers, where we will once again read about how the old can't compare with the new in any respect and how lacking the bass response of the X5 is in relation to the newbies! Plus ca change....

Jean-Paul

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #47 on: 6 Nov 2020, 02:43 am »
Just a bit much physically for our only public living area in a smaller beach home. Active XO, 2 stereo amps, is also somewhat complex. The 708p's with all of that built-in would have been a better option, but I have a big dog and small active grandchildren, so stands are a no go.

I gather their performance wasn't the reason, then? When you compare the tech of the M2 with something like the stratospherically-priced Everest they're a bargain, even at $15K or so.

Jean-Paul

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #48 on: 6 Nov 2020, 02:59 am »
Just noticed that the JBL Everest 67000, which retails around 75 grand a pair and sports two 15 inch woofers a side, has a specified -6dB frequency of 45Hz. In other words, less bass than the old M4! 

genjamon

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #49 on: 6 Nov 2020, 03:36 am »
I don’t consider -3dB at 46 hz to be anywhere near full range. You’re entirely missing the lowest octave. Yes, you’ll hear bass instruments, etc with response down to that level, but you certainly won’t feel it. A tremendous amount of the foundation of music is in frequencies below 40hz. The M4 Turbo S are absolutely fine speakers, especially for the price. And in fact I thought they were even a bit more nimble and transparent than the original M3’s (probably due to their lower moving mass of the 12” drivers).  But they do absolutely need subwoofers to play full range.

genjamon

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #50 on: 6 Nov 2020, 03:47 am »
Keep in mind the original M3 was rated down to about 30 hz range, and so are the new Sapphire series. And the X series is rated down into the mid-20 hz range. These would all offer much more substantial/extended bass foundation than the old M4 with its turning point in the mid-40’s hz.

I emphasize this information since you were insinuating this is all just a Hifi marketing ploy to encourage repeat upselling. Don’t get me wrong, there is certainly a lot of that in this hobby/industry. But in this case, regarding the issue of bass extension, I just think you should not judge the bass performance of these new models based on your experience hearing the M4. Fortunately, Spatial offers a 60 day money back return policy so anyone can hear them in their own system before final decision.

TomS

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #51 on: 6 Nov 2020, 01:00 pm »
I gather their performance wasn't the reason, then? When you compare the tech of the M2 with something like the stratospherically-priced Everest they're a bargain, even at $15K or so.
Nope and yes (~$20k w/dsp 4ch amps).

Jean-Paul

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #52 on: 7 Nov 2020, 03:39 am »
I don’t consider -3dB at 46 hz to be anywhere near full range. You’re entirely missing the lowest octave. Yes, you’ll hear bass instruments, etc with response down to that level, but you certainly won’t feel it. A tremendous amount of the foundation of music is in frequencies below 40hz. The M4 Turbo S are absolutely fine speakers, especially for the price. And in fact I thought they were even a bit more nimble and transparent than the original M3’s (probably due to their lower moving mass of the 12” drivers).  But they do absolutely need subwoofers to play full range.

Yes, I agree that a truly full-range speaker needs to be able to go down to 20Hz at realistic levels to justify the epithet. But how many speakers come close to achieving that? As that bottom octave is far and away the most expensive octave in audio then to produce affordable loudspeakers it's almost obligatory for market-minded manufacturers to compromise on this aspect. But again there is -3dB at 46Hz and there is the other kind of three decibels down at 46Hz. For instance, my JBL LSR6328P are specified at exactly that and as they have a much faster rolloff than the 6dB/Octave of the M4TurboS, you would think they would need a sub even more than the SA's. But two seconds of listening are enough to dispel the theory: the JBL's sound much full-bodied, weightier, and, yes, full-range than the M4's. In fact, I have two matching LSR6312P subwoofers to use to get extra bass if I feel I need it but I rarely use them because the 6328's sound very satisfying on their own. Now, the M4 doesn't have the bass physical impact I love in the JBLs so why don't I use the JBL subs (which I can stand upright right alongside to M4s) to provide same? Well, that's because I LOVE what the SA's do in the bass: they mave not have the "oomph" but they are so beautifully articulate and natural I don't want to compromise this aspect of their presentation. Every speaker has some sort of compromise and I'm willing to live with the ones on the M4, partly because I have other speakers to provide the bass power when I want it.
Now, there are users who swear that the new models provide all the weight and impact that any reasonably-minded listener could ask for. Although I'm sceptical about this, I could be way off the mark. If the X5s can provide even greater articulation than the M4 along with the physical impact of my Barefoot MM12's then they would be an epochal advancement in speaker design and I would have no qualms about placing an immediate order for them.

Jean-Paul

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #53 on: 7 Nov 2020, 03:55 am »
Keep in mind the original M3 was rated down to about 30 hz range, and so are the new Sapphire series. And the X series is rated down into the mid-20 hz range. These would all offer much more substantial/extended bass foundation than the old M4 with its turning point in the mid-40’s hz.

I emphasize this information since you were insinuating this is all just a Hifi marketing ploy to encourage repeat upselling. Don’t get me wrong, there is certainly a lot of that in this hobby/industry. But in this case, regarding the issue of bass extension, I just think you should not judge the bass performance of these new models based on your experience hearing the M4. Fortunately, Spatial offers a 60 day money back return policy so anyone can hear them in their own system before final decision.

I insinuated no such thing; I totally believe in Clayton's motives in bringing out new models. They're obviously drastically different in many ways from the old ones and are so refreshingly opposed to the run-of-the-mill designs clogging the catalogues that I think everybody remotely interested in sound reproduction should be auditioning them. My goal in fact is free discussion of SA's offerings. If you wish to turn this Forum into an SA lovefest I think it loses the rationale for its existence. While my experience of the SA line is limited, I have been extremely enthusiastic ("astonishing", "remarkable", etc) over what I have heard. However, I really don't believe that they do everything perfectly and I don't think it does anyone any favours in the long run by proclaiming the perfection of the current models. I mean, where would that leave Clayton's room to move? I bet even now he's thinking about improvements to his designs, improvements that some of the owners of these models are insisting would be unnecessary.

VistaBlue

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Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #54 on: 9 Nov 2020, 04:31 pm »
Have had my X5's for close to 2 months now and without out a doubt the best speakers I've owned.

Now listed for sale. Ouch. Sorry to see this.

sjsfiveo

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  • Posts: 13
Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #55 on: 9 Nov 2020, 04:53 pm »
Yes they are :-( , sometimes life throws you a curve ball.

genjamon

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #56 on: 9 Nov 2020, 04:57 pm »
I insinuated no such thing; I totally believe in Clayton's motives in bringing out new models. They're obviously drastically different in many ways from the old ones and are so refreshingly opposed to the run-of-the-mill designs clogging the catalogues that I think everybody remotely interested in sound reproduction should be auditioning them. My goal in fact is free discussion of SA's offerings. If you wish to turn this Forum into an SA lovefest I think it loses the rationale for its existence. While my experience of the SA line is limited, I have been extremely enthusiastic ("astonishing", "remarkable", etc) over what I have heard. However, I really don't believe that they do everything perfectly and I don't think it does anyone any favours in the long run by proclaiming the perfection of the current models. I mean, where would that leave Clayton's room to move? I bet even now he's thinking about improvements to his designs, improvements that some of the owners of these models are insisting would be unnecessary.

I must have misread your intentions.  I saw someone with few posts on AC suddenly show up with a flurry of posts in the Spatial Audio forum promoting pro-audio powered speakers and denigrating the bass performance of home audio designs in general, including those of Spatial Audio.  And these claims were backed up by your personal perceptions of the bass performance of the M4, which I thought was a rather poor reference point relative to the current Spatial offerings.

But I'm no Spatial fanboy.  Yes, I used to own the M1 (equivalent of the M3), and have heard a friend's M4 on many occasions, including borrowing for a full weekend at my own home.  But I sold the M1 after hearing the Daedalus DA-RMa V2 speakers in my system.  They were just at a different level of detail and realism, while retaining a very natural sound.  Like you, I loved the performance of the earlier M-series of Spatial, but did not find they were "perfect" speakers.  But also like you, I am very curious about the new Sapphire and X-Series by Spatial, especially since it sounds like the X-Series has a very minimal crossover system which can have upgraded capacitors, and the Sapphire has a crossover box that is not integrated into the baffle and may afford enough space for upgrades there too.  With my current Zu Omen Dirty Weekends, which use only a single capacitor to roll off the supertweeter and nothing at all on the main driver, the quality of that single capacitor makes quite a bit of difference in the overall sound.  Doing one's best to design minimal crossovers and then use top quality crossover parts is, IMO, crucial to hearing what speakers are truly capable of. 

Big Red Machine

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #57 on: 9 Nov 2020, 06:35 pm »
Now listed for sale. Ouch. Sorry to see this.

They're mine now. Glad to help Steve through these times.

Road trip!

TomS

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #58 on: 9 Nov 2020, 08:21 pm »
They're mine now. Glad to help Steve through these times.

Road trip!
8)

morganc

Re: New x5's a bargain at twice the price.
« Reply #59 on: 9 Nov 2020, 08:49 pm »
They're mine now. Glad to help Steve through these times.

Road trip!

Ha. I saw your Wilson's for sale and knew something was up. Congrats!  Now what are you gonna run in the rest of your system?