[JonathanWalton7]

. Hello Danny, and to all on this forum.

    I'm an aspiring film composer/producer having found myself in need of suggestions for designing a small bedroom studio with surround monitoring capabilities.  (I intend to use it primarily for 75% music production and 25% casual listening).  Specifically I'd like to  set up my studio for 5.1 surround monitoring with a mix of GR Research speakers .  I'm new to the audiophile world so I'm hoping all of your combined years of expertise/passion for audio fidelity could greatly inform the design and structure of my set up.  I'd be very very grateful for some direction.

     The basic questions I have are:
   1.  Can I monitor in 5.1 surround using passive speakers?
   2.  If so, How?  What gear is available to both amplify the monitors and also bridge my digital equipment? 
   3. Could a HIGH quality theater receiver power/bridge my equipment effectively?

   If I could explain and give some background:
I have no monitors currently.  I’ve been mixing with Beyerdynamic 770pro headphones together with my Motu M4 audio interface and MacBook Pro.  For now, I'm planning on getting by with a sub and 2 channel near-field monitors, most likely using the new NX studios/servo sub.  (The testimony of users Tyson, SonicJoy, Hobbsmeerkat, NRD music and others have got me really excited about them!). Then, perhaps after a year of saving, I'd add my center, L/R rears full 5.1 surround.

   However....from my limited understanding, processing/powering/monitoring all of them at once from my computer wouldn't be easy.  It appears that passive speakers are all but abandoned in the pro audio world (Sweetwater Kraft Guitar Center etc.)  besides those made by ATC and Amphion.  So as of yet, I've not seen passive speakers used in a SURROUND environment, nor the audio gear that would make that possible.

   I feel like i've missed something so simple here... and I'm feeling pretty dumbfounded.  So feel free to correct me, but the way I understand it, in order to use Danny's passive monitors I'd have to connect a 5.1 audio interface and send separate (mono) audio to 5 separate amps, each powering their own separate speaker.  So that's 1 multichannel interface, 5 amps, and 5 speakers....that's a lot of separates!  A youtuber suggested this method.  I'm sorry but that seems ludicrous to me.  If thats my only solution, then idk, I'll just have to figure something else out.  There must be a more streamlined solution.

   However, one website did suggest using a commercial grade home theater av/receiver to process the sound and power every speaker.  Link: https://www.musicradar.com/how-to/how-to-mix-in-51-surround-on-a-budget
I've never owned a receiver.  But this seems feasible from a power standpoint.  I suppose a very very good one from Marantz, Denon, or Outlaw Audio could suffice???  But Unless someone here could attest to this particular solution, I’d worry about the receivers' handling of the audio.  Seeing as they're intended for theater use, would they be coloring the sound?  I honestly don't know. 

   The only other thing I can think to do is just convert the NX Studios to Active monitors.  I'm going to just message danny directly and see if he'd consider supplying suitable amp components to be paired with the NX Studios.  It would be great if that works and it still preserves their sonic integrity.
 
   So again my questions are basically the following:
1. Can I monitor passive speakers in a surround set up?
2. What gear is available to bridge all of the equipment? 
3. Could a theater receiver suffice?

   I'm ready to get my hands dirty and get to work putting this studio together.  Eventually my next set of questions are about room treatment, and selecting the best GR speakers for L/R/Center, and which would suit my room best.  But for now I could really use a few wise words on what to do about my monitoring situation.  If anyone could be so kind as to get me off the ground with this dilemma, then I'd be extremely grateful!

Hope you're all well.  Thank you and stay safe!  ☺️ 

[corndog71]

Though its in storage I still have the Outlaw 1070 receiver because it had very gutsy and dynamic amplifiers. 

Their current surround processor and 5-channel amp might be a little pricy at $1750 but if you look at the features you definitely get your money's worth.  RCA multichannel inputs, balanced outputs from the processor and balanced inputs on the 5-channel amp.

[JonathanWalton7]

Though its in storage I still have the Outlaw 1070 receiver because it had very gutsy and dynamic amplifiers. 

Their current surround processor and 5-channel amp might be a little pricy at $1750 but if you look at the features you definitely get your money's worth.  RCA multichannel inputs, balanced outputs from the processor and balanced inputs on the 5-channel amp.

Thank you for replying!  I just looked up the pre/pro and amp by outlaw audio.  They both look really good.  But yeah kind of expensive like you said.

I think I found a surround interface by Motu with an ESS Sabre DAC.  This looks promising.  https://motu.com/products/avb/ultralite-avb
They have like ump-teen different surround interfaces to choose from.  And I've messaged Danny about what he recommends for converting the monitors to active speakers. Until he responds I'll keep looking.  Btw the Outlaw Audio 1050 looked amazing.  I can't believe they dont have an all in one receiver like that now.

[SoCalWJS]

Hello there! Honestly thought you'd get a few more responses before now. You have a somewhat unique set of circumstances.

DISCLAIMER - NO DIRECT EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR SITUATION.

A few questions come to mind.

1) You mention 5.1 Audio - what format? (PCM, DTS or Dolby Lossless, etc)
         - This may determine what type of receiver/Pre-Pro you want to use.
          - You are talking 5.1, so I'm guessing you are not talking about the newer Standards such as Atmos, Neo X, etc.
2) What is the size of the space you will be working in?
          - This determines the size of the speakers you will need. If you are in a small space, you don't want big floor standing speakers.

From reading previous posts and watching Video, I don't believe Danny is a big fan of Active speakers - introduces new issues and limits the type of amplifier you can use. Most (All?) use Digital Amplification due to space issues. While digital has taken great strides recently, just a few years ago it was not great for 2 channel music (that has changed recently). You then need to decide the Amp(s) to match the drivers and the enclosure. Quite a bit of work and modifications to do.

If it were me, I'd look at the Studio Monitor types that Danny has made and get 5 of them. Decide on what you prefer for tweeter driver type (traditional tweeter or "BG- Neo" style [which I am a fan of]). As far as sub(s) (for the .1 channel), that depends on space and budget. Multiple if you can afford it and have the space. Servo controlled. OB if you can - again, all IMO.

Get a HT Receiver that has the features you need. You get what you pay for, so budget will be the deciding factor. The upper limit is quite expensive. Have sure it has the connectivity and features you need. I ended up with a Denon (which is basically the same as a Marantz). Yamaha is a popular choice. Outlaw is a fine option as well as Emotiva for more $$$ (Great reviews - do a search). An "All-in-one" solution instead of separates simplifies things and takes up less space.

Running out of steam.

Good Luck!

[Jonathon Janusz]

I took a minute to check this out, and here is what looks like an article discussing exactly what you are asking about:

https://www.musicradar.com/how-to/how-to-mix-in-51-surround-on-a-budget

With a broad simplification, the main difference between passive and active monitors is where the amps and final signal processing before the analog stage reside (active this is in each speaker, passive the amps are in front of the speakers in a separate component/enclosure, and the processor can either be integrated - a receiver - or separate from the amps - dedicated surround processors/DSP units).

I'd think (aside from the subjective and or objective measured sound quality of the monitors) that your other main concerns going with passive audiophile speakers would be to make sure you've got enough headroom in amplifier power and SPL output capability to hit the peaks in SPL you'll have to hit when mastering for cinema - and make sure the system can do that sustained (for long work sessions) without burning out the amps and or speakers.  If you are trying to set up a system in something roughly small bedroom sized and sitting 2 meters from all the speakers, you'd be able to hit 105dB peaks with about 150wpc with about 30wpc worth of headroom on the amps (Danny's intro thread to the NX-Studios state they are 89dB efficient).  This isn't even as challenging as it sounds, as you'd also be cutting off the monitors at a lot less than full range, so make sure you plan on subs to go with each channel to end up with full-range channels all around when you're done (plus subs for your LFE channel).

On paper at least, if you wouldn't have said you were trying to do this in a home studio, it might have been a bit of a stretch using reasonably priced consumer gear.  As is, again on paper at least, it seems within reach.

Good luck!

[JonathanWalton7]

Hello there! Honestly thought you'd get a few more responses before now. You have a somewhat unique set of circumstances.

DISCLAIMER - NO DIRECT EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR SITUATION.

A few questions come to mind.

1) You mention 5.1 Audio - what format? (PCM, DTS or Dolby Lossless, etc)
         - This may determine what type of receiver/Pre-Pro you want to use.
          - You are talking 5.1, so I'm guessing you are not talking about the newer Standards such as Atmos, Neo X, etc.

Well one day I'd love to mix in Dolby atmos and DTS.  But certain softwares are required to do that.  There are plug-ins that will allow me to encode the audio into the array of DTS formats.  So I'm probably going that route.  But I certainly can't justify paying for the Atmos mixing software (yearly 1,000$ subscription to protools HD or paying for Nuendo (by parent company steinberg) which is a couple g's.

I work out of Logic Pro which gives me great options to mix with PCM audio and configure the output to 5.1 surround formats.  This is my base starting point before I decide on my software needs.  I'm also prepping to build myself a new computer in a couple months on Black Friday.  So the surround software that best suits me with Logic Pro is what I'm looking into right now before I get to that point.  What's impressive about Logic is I can even encode the audio to ambisonic surround which I was pretty impressed by.

2) What is the size of the space you will be working in?
          - This determines the size of the speakers you will need. If you are in a small space, you don't want big floor standing speakers.

So the room I intend to use is 10'x10' with an 8' ceiling.  It has a small 1x2 window and 2 closets.  So the room is small.  But I also have the option to use another room in the house which is 11'x12' and also with 8' ceiling.  It has 2 larger double framed windows That I'd have to treat, along with the rest of the room.  And I suppose this could be a better option to bring my desk and speakers into the room and have a little space away from the walls.  Though I believe Danny has said that the design of the  NX-studios doesn't make this a crucial need.

From reading previous posts and watching Video, I don't believe Danny is a big fan of Active speakers - introduces new issues and limits the type of amplifier you can use. Most (All?) use Digital Amplification due to space issues. While digital has taken great strides recently, just a few years ago it was not great for 2 channel music (that has changed recently). You then need to decide the Amp(s) to match the drivers and the enclosure. Quite a bit of work and modifications to do.

If it were me, I'd look at the Studio Monitor types that Danny has made and get 5 of them. Decide on what you prefer for tweeter driver type (traditional tweeter or "BG- Neo" style [which I am a fan of]). As far as sub(s) (for the .1 channel), that depends on space and budget. Multiple if you can afford it and have the space. Servo controlled. OB if you can - again, all IMO.

I assume when you say "digital amplification" that this is synonymous with Class D amplifiers?  I think that's what I'd prefer.  They're extremely power efficient (and not so pricey) so with multiple speakers running that does become my best option.  I've heard that those Class D amps like Ice and Hypex and Purifi are all very good class d amps.  If I ultimately decide to make the speakers active, then I'm almost certain that I'd be using these class d's and pairing them with each speaker.

I know very little about selecting tweeters and drivers.  I can only somewhat gather what a spec sheet says about their frequency response and their power needs.  And even then, that's the sort of thing I'd need help with.  I've messaged Danny about all of this and hopefully he responds but I'm sure he is busy right now.
 

Get a HT Receiver that has the features you need. You get what you pay for, so budget will be the deciding factor. The upper limit is quite expensive. Have sure it has the connectivity and features you need. I ended up with a Denon (which is basically the same as a Marantz). Yamaha is a popular choice. Outlaw is a fine option as well as Emotiva for more $$$ (Great reviews - do a search). An "All-in-one" solution instead of separates simplifies things and takes up less space.

Yeah I prefer finding a capable device that can do it all.  As I mentioned before I'm not mixing in atmos or anything involving spatial audio...but for what I'm willing to pay, I'm sure a receiver would already have this encoding built into it.  I wouldn't mind paying 1200$, more or less, for a high quality receiver if it performs well.  In separates, this surround setup could easily cost 2-3 times that.

Running out of steam.

Thanks for putting your "steam" into this response.   These conversations are never 2 dimensional and require a lot of thought and time.     You gave me a lot to consider and I really appreciate it. 

[JonathanWalton7]

I took a minute to check this out, and here is what looks like an article discussing exactly what you are asking about:

https://www.musicradar.com/how-to/how-to-mix-in-51-surround-on-a-budget

With a broad simplification, the main difference between passive and active monitors is where the amps and final signal processing before the analog stage reside (active this is in each speaker, passive the amps are in front of the speakers in a separate component/enclosure, and the processor can either be integrated - a receiver - or separate from the amps - dedicated surround processors/DSP units).

I think I catch your drift here.  You're saying I shouldn't really have to overthink whether my speakers are active or passive... that perhaps my concern is moot?  I guess an amp is an amp no matter where in the chain it is.  If that's what you're implying then I think you're 100% right.  I'd still have to buy multiple amps in either an Active setup or a Passive setup.  Which is why I'd REALLY REALLY prefer to find a proper receiver that can power everything at once.

I'd think (aside from the subjective and or objective measured sound quality of the monitors) that your other main concerns going with passive audiophile speakers would be to make sure you've got enough headroom in amplifier power and SPL output capability to hit the peaks in SPL you'll have to hit when mastering for cinema - and make sure the system can do that sustained (for long work sessions) without burning out the amps and or speakers.  If you are trying to set up a system in something roughly small bedroom sized and sitting 2 meters from all the speakers, you'd be able to hit 105dB peaks with about 150wpc with about 30wpc worth of headroom on the amps (Danny's intro thread to the NX-Studios state they are 89dB efficient). 

Question:  Do you know what the wattage, nominal ohms, and general power requirements are for the NX-Studios?  I looked over the threads in the forum and I saw conjecture, but I couldn't seem to find a number.  Danny hasn't answered me on that yet either.  I would think those numbers would be valuable for me in picking the right receiver.

This isn't even as challenging as it sounds, as you'd also be cutting off the monitors at a lot less than full range, so make sure you plan on subs to go with each channel to end up with full-range channels all around when you're done (plus subs for your LFE channel).

Yes thank you for that reminder on the sub.  I'm planning on gettting one subwoofer to handle the bass management of the room.  I just recently found an authoritative list of recommendations for mixing in surround, including setting up and calibrating the system.  It recommends the same thing for bass management.  I haven't read the whole thing yet, but this is my reading material for the weekend.  I'm sure I'll have a question or two once I'm done reading it.
 
http://www2.grammy.com/pdfs/recording_academy/producers_and_engineers/5_1_rec.pdf

And, yes, exactly.  The small room works to my advantage because it shouldn't need huge power or amplification.  This is just an example but do you think something comparable to the Denon AVR-X3600H UHD av receiver could work?  It powers up to 9.2 channels at 105w/channel, and has dual subwoofers out among other numerous features.  Its a little over 1100$.  It isn't the 150w per channel you mentioned before.  Would I need something more powerful than this?

Thank you very very much for your help here.  I think you've given me some hope. 

[SoCalWJS]

If you decide on  a HT Recever, most lose value fairly quickly. If you don't need the latest bells & whistles, used is a good way to go. Check classified here and elsewhere. I bought a "refurbished" Denon from Accessories4less and have been happy with it.

[Jonathon Janusz]

I think I catch your drift here.  You're saying I shouldn't really have to overthink whether my speakers are active or passive... that perhaps my concern is moot?  I guess an amp is an amp no matter where in the chain it is.  If that's what you're implying then I think you're 100% right.  I'd still have to buy multiple amps in either an Active setup or a Passive setup.  Which is why I'd REALLY REALLY prefer to find a proper receiver that can power everything at once.

Pretty much.    If you went with a multichannel amp (or a receiver with multiple channels of amplification built in) you'd only have one box worth of space being taken up by amplification.  Granted, monoblock amps all around have advantages (potentially more current drive/amp with dedicated power supplies, possibly lower noise with maximal channel separation, easier to swap out one channel should one go bad...), but considering the kind of setup you're discussing, I can't see you going wrong starting small and adding if you feel the need. 

Using home theater setups as a guide (might want to check out the Home Theater and Video) circle here on AudioCircle for a more focused discussion on multichannel setups), often times folks will split their amplification in to something beefier for the front LCR because those do most of the heavy lifting.  A common enough strategy with folks who have/start with a receiver (that has preamp outputs) is to get separate amp(s) for the LCR and run the surrounds off the built-in amplification on the receiver to take some of the load off of the built-in amp. 

If you're shopping for a top shelf multichannel amp, you might want to check out Digital Amplifier Company's 5-Cherry (they have a manufacturer circle here on AudioCircle).

Question:  Do you know what the wattage, nominal ohms, and general power requirements are for the NX-Studios?  I looked over the threads in the forum and I saw conjecture, but I couldn't seem to find a number.  Danny hasn't answered me on that yet either.  I would think those numbers would be valuable for me in picking the right receiver.

Danny is going to be your definitive source, but just about all of Danny's designs are made to be nominal 8-ohm loads that are pretty flat impedance; Danny tries to make speakers that can be driven by just about anything, which is really a good thing if you're thinking a receiver because the receiver won't see a crazy load it would have to deal with.  Bottom line is considering the line of thinking you're on for electronics, I'd be surprised if you weren't fine pairing that with the NX-Studio monitors.

Yes thank you for that reminder on the sub.  I'm planning on gettting one subwoofer to handle the bass management of the room.  I just recently found an authoritative list of recommendations for mixing in surround, including setting up and calibrating the system.  It recommends the same thing for bass management.  I haven't read the whole thing yet, but this is my reading material for the weekend.  I'm sure I'll have a question or two once I'm done reading it.
 
http://www2.grammy.com/pdfs/recording_academy/producers_and_engineers/5_1_rec.pdf

Look up "swarm subwoofers".  One will get you started for your LFE channel, but you'll probably want multiples to get your bass response in room where you want it to be.  Aside from that, it really comes down to what flavor of multichannel (DTS, THX, DD, etc.) you want to mix for regarding my earlier thoughts on subs; if the spec for the format you're mixing calls for 5 full-range channels, the NX-Studio alone aren't going to cut it because they don't play low enough.  You'd need to add (sub)woofers to fill in the bottom end.  As opposed to a lot of folks here doing this just for enjoyment, other than getting the low end frequency response in-room where you need it to be, you're really just applying the right tool for whatever the job is you're trying to do.  All that said, a full setup of NX-Studio all around with a sub for LFE isn't going to be a bad place to start at all!

And, yes, exactly.  The small room works to my advantage because it shouldn't need huge power or amplification.  This is just an example but do you think something comparable to the Denon AVR-X3600H UHD av receiver could work?  It powers up to 9.2 channels at 105w/channel, and has dual subwoofers out among other numerous features.  Its a little over 1100$.  It isn't the 150w per channel you mentioned before.  Would I need something more powerful than this?

This really comes down to headroom in the amps to get as much sound as you need, as cleanly as you can make it, as long as you need to have it make sound continuously, without burning out the amps.  My previous thoughts were ballparking for THX spec, which would be requiring max peaks of 105dB (or -20dB from +0dB level being set to 85dB in-room) as the reference level you need to hit.  Using the same speakers, again at 1m distance from you to each speaker, 105wpc would get you peaks of 102dB with plenty of headroom (or an actual peak of 103-ish).  All that means is that if you're trying to mix to THX spec, you'd have to drop your +0dB point to measure 82dB instead of 85dB (maintaining the required +20dB dynamic range) to keep your mixes level matched as closely as you can with that amount of power (although admittedly you would probably want to do a final check on your mix somewhere that can hit reference just to make sure you're 100% happy with the result if you're going to sell your work as translating right to-spec).

Thank you very very much for your help here.  I think you've given me some hope. 

   Get some tools, start making some music, and I'm sure you'll figure the fiddly bits out as you learn what your tools can do.  The NX-Studio, per Danny, was designed specifically to do what you have in mind.  Subjective opinions in mind, just remember there are people getting paid a lot more working with a lot less; the important part is to get to work.