[Wayne99]

I think it's time that audio manufactures and audiophiles come to grips with the rampant subjectivity so prevalent in audio, not just today, but in the past immemorial.  Unless this issue is resolved soon, the audio world is simply going to be relegated to an area of human endeavour that is of little consequence and minimal importance in people lives.

And why is this ?  Issues have existed since the birth of audio as we know it. These issues have been carelessly over looked due to the persistent and stubborn attitude of companies and engineers, insisting on clinging to the old and outdated attitudes from the past.

It remains to be seen whether the situation will change, or if engineers will eventually come to realize what the problem has been all along.

Harsh ?  Certainly. But so has the unresolved issue been equally harsh.  Based on the manner in which so much of the audio industry has treated the situation, one can only assume music is not considered by them to be all that important.  There needs to be an awakening to the true value of music, not the next latest and greatest audio exercise and marketing campaign.

[timind]

What are you talking about? I get you are upset about something, but seriously don't understand exactly what the problem is you're upset over.

If you're talking about music appreciation by the masses, whose responsibility is it to encourage that appreciation? Not sure I follow your premise.

Oh, and Maty is going to come along and move this thread eventually.

[ric]

If I understand what you are saying, you are talking about the chasm between listening enjoyment vs. marketing and money (?). But for many, listening to Spotify on their inexpensive headsets is fine, presuming they love what they are listening to. Then there is the audiophile community (as one guy said, he likes the phrase HiFi enthusiast) that focuses on "state of the art" which is exemplified by TAS magazine, whose goal is to reproduce unamplified music as close as possible as the real thing (while pushing their state of the art products, via advertising)
But at what cost?
And this is an endemic part of our society and culture, which values money, but further than that, the idea is to sell you on the idea that you don't have enough (of whatever, in this case audio) and further than that, that you are worth less (worthless) because you don't drive the right car, live in the right house, can't afford...and herein lies the rub--there is a part of human nature to improve and move forward, and technology is certainly that. But technology does not guarantee satisfaction, in fact it would guarantee dissatisfaction, as the desire for more and different melds with the desire to sell you more and different.
So, where is the emotional satisfaction from listening to an artist bring you music?

[Peter J]

If I understand what you are saying, you are talking about the chasm between listening enjoyment vs. marketing and money (?). But for many, listening to Spotify on their inexpensive headsets is fine, presuming they love what they are listening to. Then there is the audiophile community (as one guy said, he likes the phrase HiFi enthusiast) that focuses on "state of the art" which is exemplified by TAS magazine, whose goal is to reproduce unamplified music as close as possible as the real thing (while pushing their state of the art products, via advertising)
But at what cost?
And this is an endemic part of our society and culture, which values money, but further than that, the idea is to sell you on the idea that you don't have enough (of whatever, in this case audio) and further than that, that you are worth less (worthless) because you don't drive the right car, live in the right house, can't afford...and herein lies the rub--there is a part of human nature to improve and move forward, and technology is certainly that. But technology does not guarantee satisfaction, in fact it would guarantee dissatisfaction, as the desire for more and different melds with the desire to sell you more and different.
So, where is the emotional satisfaction from listening to an artist bring you music?

Well said Ric. I think it's important in this, or any other endeavor, to recognize where we derive pleasure and satisfaction. If that's defined and described by marketing, we're letting someone else drive our train. I know people who sought and achieved all the "trappings of wealth", but were still unsatisfied, because the ideals they bought into were not their own.

[richidoo]

I think it's time that audio manufactures and audiophiles come to grips with the rampant subjectivity so prevalent in audio, not just today, but in the past immemorial.

Nothing wrong with subjectivity. This is a creative hobby, building music listening systems that cause a feeling of joy while a human mind and heart enjoy music created by human mind and heart and played by human minds and hearts. Judging it all with a measurement machine seems illogical. Ignoring pleasant-sounding distortion that enhances the music listening experience seems illogical. Boiling the whole art down to reducing distortion seems simplistic and boring. I am good friends with hard core objectivists, and subjectivists. We all learn from each other, take each other's advice and love the same music in the same way. It would be wise for us to let those who hear and feel music in a different way be allowed to enjoy their hobby their own way. Subjectivist equipment still sells, and always will. Audiophile hobby is not about efficiency or low distortion. It's about love and passion. You need tubes and coils and vinyl and paper cones and echo to make that happen - in playback and in the original performance. Nothing wrong with subjectivism.

Unless this issue is resolved soon, the audio world is simply going to be relegated to an area of human endeavour that is of little consequence and minimal importance in people lives.

Video killed the radio star. Commercial audio-only entertainment is done. Radio stations are going broke, recording artists make no money on sales. The music can only be given away to promote the sale of concert tickets and Tshirts as a social experience. There is insufficient artistic value in contemporary music to support investment in high end audiophile playback equipment by the young 30 something professionals who float our hobby.

And why is this ?  Issues have existed since the birth of audio as we know it. These issues have been carelessly over looked due to the persistent and stubborn attitude of companies and engineers, insisting on clinging to the old and outdated attitudes from the past.

In the beginning of audio (1950) it grew exponentially because of the demand for quality audio equipment by the massive music loving public listening to awesome music over 4 decades. There were no issues that the tidal wave of money couldn't solve, and it did solve them all. The only problems were caused by too much money, like drugs and corruption. But the music still came through and feed the people and floated the parasite industries like audio and radio.

The record companies killed their golden goose in many ways, but it's not due to stubbornly maintaining outdated attitudes from the past. The past is when they made money by selling great music to loyal audiences over many years. Two biggest ways they destroyed the music industry (and their parasite industries) were adopting unprotected digital distribution, and giving up the expensive A&R model of artist development over time. They allowed people to steal their product and they reduced the quality of the product.

It remains to be seen whether the situation will change, or if engineers will eventually come to realize what the problem has been all along.

Engineers are more skilled and better equipped now to make hit records that people would love enough to invest in high end audiophile equipment, just like they did in the 60s when hip teens listened to Coltrane and Brubeck to be cool while listening to Beatles for fun. The quality of music is what grows the record industry and its parasite, home audio equipment. Give the people what they want and they will buy it. People need music, they miss good music. They will buy it again. When record companies were independent and had to make money, they couldn't fuck around with satanic, sexual, drug themed garbage catering to the beliefs of their deviant producers and artists. They had to make money, so they had to sell Beach Boys and MJ. Now there is different priority in MSM, and it is not making money, nor pleasing a mass audience. They give away the music to build brand to sell other stuff. People who love sneakers headphones and booze love it. Normal people who like fun pop entertainment have switched to youtube and tiktok.

Harsh ?  Certainly. But so has the unresolved issue been equally harsh.  Based on the manner in which so much of the audio industry has treated the situation, one can only assume music is not considered by them to be all that important.  There needs to be an awakening to the true value of music, not the next latest and greatest audio exercise and marketing campaign.

Reality is harsh. Real art is harsh. Low distortion audio equipment is harsh. Splitting the participants of our hobby into objectivists and subjectivists is harsh, when in reality we all have within us a little of each, changing in proportion from month to month or record to record.

The audio industry knows music is important. Music is what built the audio industry 1950-1990. Normal people investing in the music they love. Audio industry now is like a small muddy pond full of tadpoles drying up in the sun. They are merging and going global to find enough audiophiles to stay afloat. Without new music and mass market appeal there is no hope for audiophile mfgs. As the music dies and existing audiophiles grow old and content with their existing hardware  and potential young new audiophiles choose video games instead of music the audio industry will continue to shrink and compromise to survive. The only way people choose to buy audio equipment is because of their music they love.  Some brands are shifting to target mass market, like Elac, Sonos, etc. But the cultural shift has sent audio buyers into video. Nobody will ever give up video content to go back to audio only. And with quality surround sound video content, stereo imaging and other audiophile features are obsolete.

Thanks for the thought provoking topic! And welcome to AudioCircle Wayne99!

[FullRangeMan]

Welcome Wayne 
I like subjective reviews and I also like technical reviews, these both visions are not a prob per se, what makes me stop buying magazines was the reluctance of the reviewers to report equipment construction cons and even inform the details of a less than ideal musical reproduction.