[chgolatin2]

Wheres the science or data that SET/PCB's/PTP etc sound better or worse than the other? I've come across some SET amps, PCB's, etc and personally I can't discern the difference at the end of the day it all boils down to using the proper selection of tubes to maximize the audio equipment being used.  I've listened to both Ultrailinear and Triode and personally, Ultralinear sounds better to my ear.   I know that many of us have our own personal bias, belief system, ideology, etc but I am focusing more on factual data, not anecdotal data or personal bias.  I've seen amp that combined Point to Point with PCB's, others that do Point to Point, etc and most sound pretty good to my ear.  But there's an endless argumnent about what sounds better, but then again we are all human beings and at times we are subjective to brand names, tubes type, etc. 

What I've experienced and I don't consider myself a so called "audiophile" if you match your components the right way audio tends to sound better.  For example, my brother spent 40k on a stereo system which was "BEAUTIFUL" and my 6k audio system blew away his 40k system    needless to say that his 40k audio system now sits in storage...

Most of us can be audio snobs, and that's understandable.  But what about data?  Factual evidence that X type sounds better than Y type, and vice versa? Now I hope that this thread doesn't become an argumentative type of thread but what I'm trying to focus on is on information, factual data, science, and constructive information...

[FullRangeMan]

This is not in science but in the personal taste of each person. In 100 years of building tube equipments, the historical conclusion has been reached that P-to-P sounds better and lasts longer, but as everything in life is variable from time to time appears someone with a unsual taste.

[sebrof]

The only science may be the electrical characteristics of wire vs. PCB traces, and of the connection points, etc. And of course different wire and different PCBs are used by different makers, so you'd probably need to compare two or more specific amplifiers.

I'd personally file this one under "Audiophile unknowns that will never be known" like so many other things in this hobby.
Good luck sorting this one out

[SET Man]

Hey!

   

....

What I've experienced and I don't consider myself a so called "audiophile" if you match your components the right way audio tends to sound better.  For example, my brother spent 40k on a stereo system which was "BEAUTIFUL" and my 6k audio system blew away his 40k system    needless to say that his 40k audio system now sits in storage...
...

Hey!

     I'll toss in my $0.02 about PCB and point to point wire later. I want to comment on this first because I feel it is something many audiophiles especially newbies missed.

      Your point here is right on. I've heard many systems over the years both at audio shows here in NYC and some systems in real home setting, costing anywhere from lower four figure to astronomically high. And I can tell you that some of the best or should I say ones that are most enjoyable are not very expensive at all and some of those expensive one made me want to get up and leave... that was the case on some of the expensive system at shows.

      My own system is not expensive by any means among audiophiles. No, I don't have the best system in the world but to "me" personally it is a joy to listen to music through it, better than some much more expensive systems I've heard... in my personal humble opinion of course. So, to me when is come to audio, price tag means nothing! Choose your audio equipment wisely.

    OK, back to PCB vs Point to Point wire. Both can sound good. Although, I personally never compared identical amps, one with point to point and one with PCB, don't know if any have. But  I've heard tube amps with PCB that sound excellent. But personally I prefer point to point wire, especially in tube amp where temp can get quite high in side. PCB can dry up over time. And also with tube amp that have power tube sockets soldered to the PCB this can weaken the PCB over time with heat and if you like to tube rolling than that could crack the PCB or break the traces. Although, this may be a bit over cautious because there are old tube amp 20+ years old with PCB that works just fine. And with point to point wire, you can use bigger higher quality copper wire.

    So, if given a choice between the two I would go for point to point. As for SET vs Ultralinea and Triode... well, that's a whole another can of worms. Whatever works for you man.

Buddy

[chgolatin2]

Hey!

   
Hey!

     I'll toss in my $0.02 about PCB and point to point wire later. I want to comment on this first because I feel it is something many audiophiles especially newbies missed.

      Your point here is right on. I've heard many systems over the years both at audio shows here in NYC and some systems in real home setting, costing anywhere from lower four figure to astronomically high. And I can tell you that some of the best or should I say ones that are most enjoyable are not very expensive at all and some of those expensive one made me want to get up and leave... that was the case on some of the expensive system at shows.

      My own system is not expensive by any means among audiophiles. No, I don't have the best system in the world but to "me" personally it is a joy to listen to music through it, better than some much more expensive systems I've heard... in my personal humble opinion of course. So, to me when is come to audio, price tag means nothing! Choose your audio equipment wisely.

    OK, back to PCB vs Point to Point wire. Both can sound good. Although, I personally never compared identical amps, one with point to point and one with PCB, don't know if any have. But  I've heard tube amps with PCB that sound excellent. But personally I prefer point to point wire, especially in tube amp where temp can get quite high in side. PCB can dry up over time. And also with tube amp that have power tube sockets soldered to the PCB this can weaken the PCB over time with heat and if you like to tube rolling than that could crack the PCB or break the traces. Although, this may be a bit over cautious because there are old tube amp 20+ years old with PCB that works just fine. And with point to point wire, you can use bigger higher quality copper wire.

    So, if given a choice between the two I would go for point to point. As for SET vs Ultralinea and Triode... well, that's a whole another can of worms. Whatever works for you man.

Buddy

Oh so due to the heat signature PCB's can be damaged more easily compared to Point to Point wiring...  I've seen companies combined the 2, PCB's and Point to Point.. and yes it all boils down to the quality of the components being used.  For example, a point to point wired audio equipment made with cheap wires, etc can sound not as good as a good quality made PCB board and vice versa and yes, price tag means absolutely nothing but to a few it does! 

[glynnw]

Sometimes I feel that such claims are based on the skills of the builder.  Most hobbyists build with point to point, so perhaps they then convince themselves it is superior.  I have heard both PtP and PCB sound good and bad.

[FullRangeMan]

I must warn strongly against the use of stranded wiring in Point to Point wiring amps, which unfortunately has been the norm, builders do not want solder rigid/solid wire, which is really difficult and time consuming, in this regard PrimaLuna have the honors due its Solid Wire nice solder job

Dont walk run from stranded wiring 

[borism]

Arguments for PCB also include potentially better optimized and shorter signal paths. On the other side PtP can use better quality wire as opposed to the copper traces on the PCB and is more durable regarding heat as mentioned before.

It is true that from a hobby builder perspective PtP is much more fun.

[Freo-1]

Point to point all the way.  I dislike amps where the power tube sockets are on PCB's.

[FullRangeMan]

In the hey days of audio the intended use for PCBs was low tension/currrent equips as communications, home appliances etc

[chgolatin2]

So which Point to Point amp being made and sold today sounds good that produces 30 or more watts without breaking the bank? 

[FullRangeMan]

The prob is the 30W, at this hi power you are limited to PushPull no more SET, which is a drawback. But there is some made to order SET amps with big Triodes as GM70/GK71.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skCCd4O-fVQ

https://www.youtube.com/user/Wavebourn/videos

[borism]

Quicksilver Audio