[bokko]

Bring most of this over from another thread I highjacked

Using both BDA-3 USB connections I have one connected to a Windows 10 Clone NUC that is also my Roon server and the other Raspberry Pi 4B running VitOS by Silent Angel. The NUC is powered out of always on port of Panamax Max5100 (for minor ground hum which it removes), The Pi4b is power from a ChiFi R-Core LPS which sounds much better then when using standard Switching PS.

So both are detected as Native playback devices in Roon, I then Group Zones so I can switch back and forth using the Bryston BDA-3 web interface for comparision. After a few days of listening when music switches from any format except Native DSD there is a pop as Native starts playing, then when it switches to next Native song in album no pop also no pop if next song is another native album. When leaving native to any other format another pop. This occurs on both USB connected devices.

I used to use a RME ADI-2 v1 no problems with Native DSD same equipment (they implemented a mute for a second or two I believe) easy to research. So pretty sure that would eliminate my equipment and Roon itself.

While I call it a pop it can be several pops, clicks together distracting. Is this being looked at do you need more information to report?

Thanks
Stay safe.

[WildPhydeaux]

I have no answer for you, but wonder if you have any upsampling enabled in Roon and if so if that might be related somehow, not that it should be a problem but curious.

Are your sources sending the DSD content native, as you indicate, or are they sent DoP? If actually native, have you tried DoP?

Cheers,
Robert

[bokko]

No nothing,

I deleted all the installed DSP's, headroom management and sample rate conversion are disabled (been using Roon since 2018). I like to hear sound as it was recorded and intended to be heard.
So this POP occurs when Native or DOP are selected as DSD Playback Strategy (device Setup), both on Win 10 PC USB  and Pi4b usb running VitOS powered by LPS. Switch to PCM as DSD Playback Strategy and it's gone.
This was posted in RME forum my last DAC and there is some discussion on how it was solved on another playback software MPD.
https://github.com/MusicPlayerDaemon/MPD/issues/578/

You need to pay to get Native DSD files here is how it works: https://www.nativedsd.com/information/about-dsd/
That is site where I purchased the DSD256 files.

The quick solution is leave on PCM and be done with it. Problem is the Native DSD files do to me sound better compared to 24/96 pcm of same recordings.
What I could never put my finger on was why it only sounded better from some DSD files. As ADI-2 never showed a difference between Native DSD64 files and just DSD64 files like BDA does. Believe Bryston dealt with standard DSD files and SACD's already. Both Allo (still problem) and RME (resolved but will now confirm Native is fixed) had issues that needed to be resolved. My Roon has already seen 5 transports and 3 DACs. Two Different Core servers Qnap and Win 10.

Was hoping this would be my last purchase perhaps with Native DSD link someone from Bryston could sign up for a free album (Free Sampler Link on Website) and see if they get in house as well.

You could also sign up for account Robert and try a free album see what happens.
Bought The Contemporary Fortepiano have close look at options I can't really tell different between DSD128 and DSD256 my speakers Paradigm Studio 100v3 and preamp Marantz 7012 are probably limiting factors (Age).
Prior to upgrading my Adcom GFA545 MKII to Bryston 3B SST2 I couldn't hear difference between 64 and 128 which I now can. (blind folded with wife switching).

Beware file sizes are large 2ch DSD64 is 2.77gb, DSD128 is 5.53gb and DSD256 is 11gb of that album make sure you download 2ch of course. No network problems but everything is hard wired. (I can monitor and get email if connections are dropped or saturated) it is only a tick in beginning usually once but sometimes 2-3 as explained above.

I own all Genesis and Roxy Music albums as Native DSD probably more haven't found a way to filter out Native DSD.

Know at least one other member here had mentioned also having pops with DSD.

Back to the music
Stay safe

[WildPhydeaux]

I did as requested, downloaded the free sampler from Native DSD and added it to Roon. Transitions from PCM content to the DSF64 without any pop or click. Transitions between DSF64, DSF128 and DSF256 (DoP) fine and back to PCM fine also. I expected this result as I have a couple hundred albums in DSF format at various sampling rates and never had an issue. But I wanted to make sure that ones sourced from Native DSD weren't somehow the issue you're having.

Note that the player Roon is sending to via wired LAN is a Bryston BDP-3 connected to the BDA-3.14 via USB.

You might want to formally contact Bryston support about the issue you're having.

Cheers,
Robert

[bokko]

Thanks for checking that out Robert.

As mentioned this is a known issue with the AKM 4490 not just RME or Bryston was affected by this.

If any conversion to PCM occurs you won't hear the pop (like DSP settings). I in essence have the same setup as you but with a Pi4b and it's using a Linear Power Supply (R-core) as well. (Improved power)

Really prefer to build my own computers, sure some would prefer BDP-3 to keep things simple. I do so much more with my PC also have HQ-player installed, Jriver and play movies back via HDMI into HTR (7012 lets me switch from Analog input to HDMI right from phone app.

When I switch back to my RME ADI-2 and no longer have problems but do quickly miss the sound of the BDA.

Seems HDMI audio works well with a newer player the Sony ubp-x800m2. Solved thumps shutting off by plugging it into always on power instead of triggered.

Thanks I have emailed Bryston several times and never gotten a reply busy I guess.

Stay safe

Edited

[WildPhydeaux]

Sorry to hear you've decided to bail. I mentioned that I was using the BDP-3 not as a suggestion you should also, just to provide a clearer picture of what I was using - not drawing any value conclusions.

I like my Bryston gear fine, but if either of them packed in tomorrow I would have them fixed but re-evaluate current options while waiting for them to be returned. I like Bryston but I'm mostly brand agnostic.

Cheers,
Robert

[bokko]

Sorry Robert didn't mean to infer anything there glad someone replied to me.
Appreciate your suggestions and support sent one more email via web form at bryston.com.

Give it sometime and see what happens.

My main reason for posting is so people see someone else is having a problem. Something like this leads people to try many different things to resolve. Getting perhaps grumpy as they go along.
I kind of like the challenge and am pretty good at analyzing, process, documentation hardware and software.

Wish I would have done more testing of 2018 firmware before upgrading. Interesting that Roxy Music Avalon sounds better better as Native DSD than the SACD from my Sony transport to BDA-3 over HDMI. Not saying SACD sounds bad of course just note as good. On loan have to return Monday
Cheers
Jerry

[James Tanner]

HI Folks,

From Engineering:

Its dsd, pops and clicks are quite normal with dsd as it’s a effectively a by-product of the format.  There nothing wrong with the BDP as its just rendering the data.  There is an update available for BDA-3 and 3.14 that improves suppressing these pops/clicks produced by dsd content, see the document below.

http://support.bryston.com/downloads/BDA3/firmware/BDA3%202020-06c%20firmware%20update%20bulletin.pdf

Chris

[bokko]

I am serial 1045 and am running u2020.06c version. So did temp file then upgraded to this version per instructions.

It is only on Native DSD when DSD light turns pink there is a pop just before playback (sounds like a needle drop). Doesn't reoccur until you begin playing another Native DSD album. Then only 50% of time so probably has something to do with initializing Native DSD mode. As you probably read doesn't happen with another DAC with same chipset with same albums. Did in past but was a addressed. Weird sometimes it also pops at end of song really odd it isn't consistent is it a timing thing to fix?

If DSD light is blue whether playing from files or SACD over HDMI no pop.

Great sounding equipment BTW very happy except that little issue.

Cheers
Have a great weekend.

[The Rang]

So the DSD light is pink if it’s native DSD?
Interesting, mine is blue which means my Cambridge is sending out DoP, nothing in the player’s manual indicates it does that.

[bokko]

Yes to keep answer simple when Native DSD is detected the light is pink or amber depending on led light scheme choosen.
Been reading up on it seems a flag set when recording. Perhaps similar to MQA.
https://www.nativedsd.com/information/about-dsd

This is first time I have seen a difference at dsf file level with a DAC, I usually install Asio drivers on a Mac or PC, and I am able to select Asio driver in Audio Settings in Roon then select Native as DSD playback strategy in device setup.
on a Pi4b VitOS seems to recognize the BDA-3 at the kernel level once you select it, again are able select Native as DSD playback strategy in device setup. (does not occur with my RME ADI-3 so VitOS might be device specific)
Have noted before that some DSF (DSD) files sound more envolved, little more dynamic, more accurate sound stage. Have started Tagging files in Roon. Might help to get some visitors again that have similar or better systems...

I have always gone by premise if it's well recorded it should sound good no matter how it is played back. Have a pretty descent Turntable setup as well so often go back to albums as well to compare.

[bokko]

So to reply to myself I have built a i7 based Roon Rock from an old desktop computer. Just waiting for a low noise computer power supply to arrive.

Has made no difference in the pop sound Native DSD makes on playback start. Both the Pi running Ropieee (selecting Native or DOP) and Win 10 pc with Bryston Asio drivers (Selecting Native or DOP) POP still occurs on Playback. If you reboot PC or Pi you hear three POPS if BDA-3 is still on it's selected USB input.
Guessing POP is switching modes from PCM to DSD what I find interesting is you hear POP (light turns pink) then there is a 2-3 second delay before music starts. Perhaps if the delay were to occur earlier rather than later it might help...

Spoke to Mike Friday and sent a report on whats going on if not repairable guess it's time to sell. I have 234 albums on DSD/DSF certainly doesn't seem to be an issue for most as BDP seem not to be able to do Native anyway.

Stay safe
Enjoy the music

[WillyP]

Hi Bokko,

A few questions about the Sony UBP-X800 (MK1 or MK2?), if I may ask. The output of my current Blu-ray player (Oppo based) is restricted to 88,2 kHz when playing SACDs.

Does the Sony send an unrestricted signal of 176,4 kHz to the BDA-3? Is the output of SACDs also plagued with the thumps you are talking about?

Thanks for the answers!

WillyP

[bokko]

Good Day:

The quick answers are no Sony plays back DSD 1x, yes there is one pop on start of playback and one pop if you next put in a CD when it switches back to PCM.

The OPPO and Sony DSD output are the same sound quality differences minor if at all.

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More Detail
The thumps were during shutdown via HDMI while DAC was on with Oppo 83se with this unit there is also sounds when switching audio. So going from intro to fbi warning to main menu on DVD-Audio and DVD movie disks. Same experience with Toshiba HD-A30 (HDDVD player have 50 movies). Both work fine into my Marantz SR7012. Which it also turns out can play SACD disks at DSD 64 (1x) no pop, but SQ  . The Oppo I have to power cycle with AC Cord to get HDMI input light to go from red to blue hence thuds unavoidable (everything is triggered) also a POP when light goes from red to blue as it boots up and starts to play SACD. So handshake issue not expecting it to be fixed the OPPO and Toshiba are 10 years old. The Toshiba also can't output audio over HDMI have to use Coax SPDIF with Marantz yet it works with BDA-3 except switching noise (ahhh standards...)

With the Sony UBP-X800m2 I get a thump when shutting down so plugged it into always on and let it's power management shut it down when I am not listening to it or stereo has shut off. The BDA-3 has it's own HDMI output to TV completely avoiding the Marantz so I can still do 4k. So with Sony outputting to BDA-3 on an HDMI input I get 1x DSD light is blue, same if I check Bryston inputs webpage it also reports Single-rate DSD (what you click from My Bryston page). In the Sony Setup the only DSD setting is Auto or off. Off plays PCM 16/44. I have tried ARC on and off no difference and leave it off, HDMI CEC is a nightmare.
The other setting in audio settings on Sony concerns bitstreaming or PCM and has no affect on DSD. That being said DSD 1x is 176.4 if it were converted to PCM. That is not happening and staying as DSD which is what I want. There is also a POP as Sony starts to playback DSD 1x assuming you weren't listening to DSD already. Interesting to Note until SACD playback starts the blue light is on for 176.4 which POPS then changes to DSD 1x.

As mentioned when playing Native DSD (light is pink/Amber) from files I get POP and only as playback starts, after that no problem until you switch away again to another format such as PCM.

I am not an expert but get feeling this is switching noise as it switches from PCM circuit to DSD circuit and back.

Stay safe

PS the sound is amazing, while PCM is a bit better than my RME ADI-2, DSD is leaps and bounds ahead, so hope for a fix. By far Native DSD with ROON from a Windows computer (ASIO drivers) as ROON bridge sounds best. I found the same RME (Asio drivers) sounding better than PCM. The BDA-3 being the better of two. 

[WildPhydeaux]

Good Day

Check your PMs

Cheers,
Robert

[bokko]

Good Day:

First I am using an older BDA-3 motherboard as my serial is below 001085.
So I flashed my firmware on my BDA-3 from BDA3_2020_06C_OldMB.bin back to BDA3_2018_05d.bin. If anyone else is having problems with new firmware contact Bryston for guidance. That being said I was able to load the older firmware BDA3_2018_05d.bin directly back into BDA-3 without the in between file (BDA3_2020_04A_OldMB.bin) used to upgrade. I did have to power cycle to get my.bryston.com to load web interface of BDA-3. I waited a few minutes after front display returned to normal to do so.
Great news
No more pop on Native DSD playback from files still lights pink/ amber for Native.
No pop on playback of SACD and DSD 1x still lights up.
Nor is there a pop when switching back to PCM after listening to DSD file or SACD.

I also don't have to power cycle Oppo-83se to get it to sync its HDMI signal. Unfortunately there is still some thumps when switching menu systems on HDMI inputs but will just keep volume down until disc starts to playback.

Presently connected to the Pi4b running Ropieee XL after reconnecting my RME Adi-2 back to my Win 10 transport.

Roon is still has Native for DSD playback strategy of course that is what triggers (pink/ amber led)

Now this is what I paid for!

The only thing that changed is the playback level of Native DSD at a given preamp volume seems a little less and now matches my DSD playback volume out of RME. DSD being as particular as it is perhaps that is reason for problems.

More than happy to test a fix once this is resolved?
Guessing a hardware mute would fix the remaining noises made while powering off etc...

[WildPhydeaux]

After validating that my BDP-3 is not capable of outputting native (non-DoP) DSD I had bug in my butt to check if my BDA-3.14 would have the snap, crackle, pop feature if fed a pure DSD signal.

So I loaded up the Bryston Windows driver onto a notebook PC and installed Roon as well. Played DSD, switched tracks, let tracks end, back to back DSD albums, switched to and from PCM and DSD etc...  Couldn't make it so much as do a slight tick. And it appears not be muting before or after tracks, based on some tracks that have close to zero lead-in or lead-out. All good.

Of course, what I've found typical of both these Bryston products is if I change ANYTHING, I have to reboot them to select another input. Maddening really. There is simply no way to toggle back and forth between sources to compare them. Toggle once, toggle back and no sound. It's been that way since day one but I really only use one source so I mostly ignore it.

Also thought I would try native DSD from my Oppo. I was certain I had tried this when I got the Bryston and would have sworn it worked. But it doesn't now, no matter what I do. Oh the correct lock and pink DSD64 LEDs go on on the Bryston, but no output. Whatever. As good as this gear sounds when it IS working, it's days in my system are numbered. Every time I decide to try something different or compare things it turns into an evening of frustration.

Cheers,
Robert

[WillyP]

Good Day:

First I am using an older BDA-3 motherboard as my serial is below 001085.
So I flashed my firmware on my BDA-3 from BDA3_2020_06C_OldMB.bin back to BDA3_2018_05d.bin. If anyone else is having problems with new firmware contact Bryston for guidance. That being said I was able to load the older firmware BDA3_2018_05d.bin directly back into BDA-3 without the in between file (BDA3_2020_04A_OldMB.bin) used to upgrade. I did have to power cycle to get my.bryston.com to load web interface of BDA-3. I waited a few minutes after front display returned to normal to do so.
Great news
No more pop on Native DSD playback from files still lights pink/ amber for Native.
No pop on playback of SACD and DSD 1x still lights up.
Nor is there a pop when switching back to PCM after listening to DSD file or SACD.

I also don't have to power cycle Oppo-83se to get it to sync its HDMI signal. Unfortunately there is still some thumps when switching menu systems on HDMI inputs but will just keep volume down until disc starts to playback.

Presently connected to the Pi4b running Ropieee XL after reconnecting my RME Adi-2 back to my Win 10 transport.

Roon is still has Native for DSD playback strategy of course that is what triggers (pink/ amber led)

Now this is what I paid for!

The only thing that changed is the playback level of Native DSD at a given preamp volume seems a little less and now matches my DSD playback volume out of RME. DSD being as particular as it is perhaps that is reason for problems.

More than happy to test a fix once this is resolved?
Guessing a hardware mute would fix the remaining noises made while powering off etc...

That is very good news, indeed. Thanks, Jerry, for all your trouble. It seems necessary for Bryston to fix the bugs in the latest firmware and I know they already are working on a new version. I don’t know if the BDA-3.14 has the same issues. The latest version for the BDA-3.14 is from April 2020 and probably the firmware for the BDA-3 and the BDA-3.14 have a lot in common.

WillyP

[bokko]

Thanks WillyP

I have also upgraded my computer power supplies to Corsair RM650x (550 Out of Stock) on both the Roon Rock system and Roon Bridge system and am now using Win 10 system only for audio with BDA-3. Bringing it level to Rpi4b on it's power supply.
Like being able to switch between Roon and watching ripped music videos and movies eliminating Kodi. (Pi's cause havoc with HDMI CEC). Nice to see some computer companies are building power supplies with lower noise. At 160 cdn might not beat out 500+ US specialist power supplies but does trick for me definite improvement like 5-10% for PS and over my ADI ADI-2 15-20% on DSD 10-15% on PCM. Its all in the details. Have also tried a Mac Mini 2012 which I left connected but only use on Optical output not often.

Which is main reason I did not go for the 3.14, for most this is the answer "keep it simple". Can understand why many prefer 3.14 or a BDP let Bryston do the work 
Being I am an Information Technology Professional prefer building my own and know I can do more with it. (definitely requires regular maintenance and tweaks).

Funny how you think you have reached the pinnacle of great sound. Then you hear something new, then switch back to what you had before and it sounds flat in comparison.
Looking forward to many years of audio pleasure or at least until the BP-18 comes out.

Stay safe back to the music