[dealaddict]

Hi all,

I am thinking to upgrade from Zu Omen Def I to Spatial Audio X5, and would like to hear your advice.

I don't have a lot of experience hearing different speakers.  I only have 3 references.  My first higher end speaker is B&W CDM7NT.  I remember the sound is small and not musical.  I tried upgrade the amp to 200wpc Rotel and later McCormick DNA, and switch to tube preamp and tube amp ... but can't get the sound I am looking for.

One day, I visit a hi-fi shop and listen a pair of Magnepan with Macintosh mono block.  I remember I have goose bumps.  The singer sounds standing right in front of me.  The sound stage is huge and very musical.  However, I won't see myself getting a pair of Magnepan because it is so huge.  I don't have a separate living room, and my wife won't allow me to put to big black panels in the living room.  Also, I heard they need quite a lot of power or current to drive them, which is a different route I am currently on.

Now, speaking on my current system, I am using a Almarro 318B with Zu Omen Def.  it sounds much lively than the B&W, very musical, with a pretty big soundstage.  Although it is not as "live" as the Magnepan, it is pretty good.  I also recently bought a Triode Lab 2a3 SET amp with 4 watt into 8 ohms.  I am still waiting for the tube so haven't have time to try it yet.  I think speakers is the next component I would like to upgrade, and come across this Spatial Audio X5. 

Would the X5 match well with a 4w 2A3 SET amp?

I heard horns match well with low power SET amps.  And someone comment the X5 with a "horn-loaded AMT".  I don't know if this is accurate, but do I get similar horn sound from this AMT? 

What I hope to get out from upgrading the speakers are:

1) bigger soundstage and holographic like the Magnepan.
Would a open baffle design achieve this?  I think Magnepan is also dipole design.  I also have a open back headphone which sounds much "open" than a close back headphone. 

2) better bass   
Since X5 has a active subwoofer, I think it will have better bass than the Zu.  Also with the open baffle design, I heard people say the bass will be more natural.

Before knowing this X5, I am thinking to get Avantgarde horn as my next speakers.  But they are more expensive and seems too big for my area.  It would be good if anyone can comment or compare the X5 to the Avantgarde horn, say the Uno Nano. 

My listening area is 15.5 ft wide x 12 ft deep.  The speakers are placed on the long side, so, I may not have enough space behind the speakers.  I mostly listen to Jazz vocals, ballads instrumentals, tenor saxophone, guitar, cello.  So, my focus is mid and low range.

Thank you in advance.

[morganc]

I've owned both and they are vastly different speakers.  The X-5 is superior in every way from dynamics to soundstage to frequency response  except for maybe the "tone density" of vocals and instruments that the Zu possesses.

 I'd recommend trying to hear them before buying them and asking Clayton if they are a good fit for your room or not. 

[dealaddict]

Morganc, Thanks for the reply.  Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any distributor in Canada to audition.  Can you elaborate what is tone density?  Can you also elaborate on the soundstage?  Is the improvement big or just subtle?  Would you recommend the X5 as an upgrade or they just sound “different”.

Thanks.

[Shakeydeal]

I have only heard one Zu speaker, the Soul Superfly, and it did nothing for me. That said, I think your room would be fine. However, I wouldn't expect great things with a 4 watt SET amp.

Shakey

[morganc]

Morganc, Thanks for the reply.  Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any distributor in Canada to audition.  Can you elaborate what is tone density?  Can you also elaborate on the soundstage?  Is the improvement big or just subtle?  Would you recommend the X5 as an upgrade or they just sound “different”.

Thanks.

No doubt the X-5's are a huge upgrade!   I owned the Zu Defs like 10 years ago and have owned many since then and haven't looked back once.  The X-5's are without a doubt in a different league altogether. 

[dealaddict]

Would a 4 watt 2a3 SET amp good enough to drive the X5 with 97 DB efficiency?  Because of the active subwoofer, the power is mainly used to drive the AMT and midrange woofer, I think it should be ok, am I correct?  My listening area is not big and I often listen in low-medium volume since I don’t have my own listening room.  Or I should look for a 100+ db sensitivity horn speaker?  I want a 3D, immersive experience like in Magnepan which I believe partially due to the dipole design.  I am not sure if a horn speaker will give me that.   

[morganc]

IMO no one can tell you what you will like and since this speaker just came out, very few people can share their experiences.  IMHO, The key is to find the speakers that you like and then you find the amp that brings out the best in them to match your preferences.  I've used an amp that small with speakers that were lower efficiency though now I prefer a much higher wattage amp with my X-5's.  Having said that, if I had a fantastic low wattage amp for late  night listening, I'd likely love it!   

[dealaddict]

Yes, maybe it is too new, there are not too many reviews.  Especially it is not something can be auditioned.  I understand it is hard to say how it will sound with my gear or in my room, I guess we can all “guess” based on experience from different people.  In theory, I like the concept, seems hitting many check marks.  Open baffle, dipole woofer, horn loaded AMT, high efficiency for low power tube amp, active subwoofer, contemporary look without high panels.  What’s holding me is the price.  The pair I am looking at is 6k used.  I am comfortable spending up to 3K to try things out.  But hard to convinced myself to spend 6k without auditioning it.   

[Shakeydeal]

It is my opinion that 4 watts is not enough for dynamic transients.

YMMV

Shakey

[dealaddict]

It is my opinion that 4 watts is not enough for dynamic transients.

YMMV

Shakey

Thanks for your reply.  In your opinion, do you feel it is not enough for the X5, or not enough for any speakers in general?

[jachinboazicus]

I've owned both Zu and Spatial, so I think I can give some 'just my opinion' perspective.

I owned a pair of Omens for a few years, and going further down the rabbit hole, I was seriously looking at upgrading to the Omen Defs. This was about 4/5 years ago. I was also running a Klipsch sub to bump to low end. While digging into other options, I happened across a pic of the Spatial M3's, and was immediately interested. I was also happy to learn that Spatial was also a local company for me--as both Zu and Spatial are based in northern Utah. After getting my Omens, I was set on listening before buying. Clayton, being the good fella that he is, let me stop by the lab for a listen.

I knew within 10 seconds of Clayton turning them on that knew I was going to buy the M3's. That said he let me play all kinds of random test music for about an hour. Also, best part of the demo was that he also had a sub version of the M3 (forget what it was called, but it was a M3 baffle and two woofers with no tweeter that acted as a sub) set up in the room at the time. After a few songs, I asked Clayton "ok, can we hear some without the sub on?" At which point he informed me that the sub wasn't hooked up--it was just the M3's driving clean, fast bass.

So, in a nutshell, yes to both Q's 1 and 2.

Soundstage on the OB's is an entirely different thing than enclosed speakers. Its immediately impressive. As you've mentioned, its like Maggies, but with great, fast bass. Which gets to your bass Q--the bass on the Spatials is the best i've heard. The best way I can compare it is that the OB's create soundstage like a good open-back headphone. It just immediately opens soundstage and positioning in a way that no closed-back (or enclosed speaker) can, IME.

I loved my Zu's while I had them, but I can't see going back to and enclosed speaker for my main 2.0 rig ever again.

If you're anywhere near SLC, you should definitely hit up Clayton for a demo.

[Shakeydeal]

No, it would certainly work on something like a khorn. But we are comparing 104 dB to 97 dB sensitivity. That’s a pretty big difference. And maybe it would work with the x5, but it wouldn’t be ideal. I think you are better off with at least 20-30 watts.

Shakey

[dealaddict]

Thanks for the reply.  I have an Almarro 318B which outputs 18 watts.  That may work better with the X5.  However, that’s not my original intention.  I bought the 2A3 amp because of very good reviews on the internet.  Then I think the next item to upgrade is speaker and trying to find a speakers that match with the amp.  Maybe I should do this the other way round, get the speakers and find the amp to match with it.  Anyway, 6k is too much to just give a try.  It seems I will wait for reviews and see what people use then decide. 

Actually, I haven’t tried the 2A3 amps on my Zu yet because I am waiting for the tubes.  LoL.  I need to try that first.  If that doesn’t work, maybe I will sell the 2A3 amp and start again with the speakers.

[Shakeydeal]

You might like that amp. But I think you are doing yourself a great diservice by passing on the X5. Pair them with the right amp and your journey is over.

Shakey

[dealaddict]

I've owned both Zu and Spatial, so I think I can give some 'just my opinion' perspective.

I owned a pair of Omens for a few years, and going further down the rabbit hole, I was seriously looking at upgrading to the Omen Defs. This was about 4/5 years ago. I was also running a Klipsch sub to bump to low end. While digging into other options, I happened across a pic of the Spatial M3's, and was immediately interested. I was also happy to learn that Spatial was also a local company for me--as both Zu and Spatial are based in northern Utah. After getting my Omens, I was set on listening before buying. Clayton, being the good fella that he is, let me stop by the lab for a listen.

I knew within 10 seconds of Clayton turning them on that knew I was going to buy the M3's. That said he let me play all kinds of random test music for about an hour. Also, best part of the demo was that he also had a sub version of the M3 (forget what it was called, but it was a M3 baffle and two woofers with no tweeter that acted as a sub) set up in the room at the time. After a few songs, I asked Clayton "ok, can we hear some without the sub on?" At which point he informed me that the sub wasn't hooked up--it was just the M3's driving clean, fast bass.

So, in a nutshell, yes to both Q's 1 and 2.

Soundstage on the OB's is an entirely different thing than enclosed speakers. Its immediately impressive. As you've mentioned, its like Maggies, but with great, fast bass. Which gets to your bass Q--the bass on the Spatials is the best i've heard. The best way I can compare it is that the OB's create soundstage like a good open-back headphone. It just immediately opens soundstage and positioning in a way that any closed-back (or enclosed speaker) can, IME.

I loved my Zu's while I had them, but I can't see going back to and enclosed speaker for my main 2.0 rig ever again.

If you're anywhere near SLC, you should definitely hit up Clayton for a demo.

Thank you for the reply, that sounds promising.  For the X5 with active subwoofer, I can only imagine the bass will further be improve. 

Since the X5 is quite expensive, another option is to try the M series first.  It is about half the price of the X5.  How do you feel about the midrange compared to Zu Omen since the M series doesn’t have a tweeter?

[jachinboazicus]

Thank you for the reply, that sounds promising.  For the X5 with active subwoofer, I can only imagine the bass will further be improve. 

Since the X5 is quite expensive, another option is to try the M series first.  It is about half the price of the X5.  How do you feel about the midrange compared to Zu Omen since the M series doesn’t have a tweeter?

Starting with M makes sense to me. Also, the M-series definitely has a tweeter. The Sapphire series has the tweeter above the 15's, but the Turbo S and Triode Master have the coaxial tweeter mounted on the top 15. I have the M3 Triode Master with the dipole coaxial tweeter. The mids on the M3's vs the Omens are on an entirely different level. My Omens would get shouty and harsh at ~90db, but the M3's stay clear and easy well past healthy listening levels.

I've actually been considering selling my M3TM's to upgrade to the X-series, but the lights went out on my trusty Marantz 4300 and I need to get a new amp(s) before I go further down the rabbit hole.

[geerock]

Dealaddict,
Keep in mind that Clayton shows both the Sapphires and the X's with an LTA amp that puts out 12 watts.  I bought the LTA mono and paired it with a Don Sach pre and it simply stunned me.  This, after using a 65 watt  Crimson 275 tube amp and a pair of high current Odyssey monos with 185k ohms of high quality capacitance.  Never felt I was short of headroom or volume.  At 97 sensitivity you can drive with just about anything of good quality.  It's not watts, its quality of watts.

[dealaddict]

Starting with M makes sense to me. Also, the M-series definitely has a tweeter. The Sapphire series has the tweeter above the 15's, but the Turbo S and Triode Master have the coaxial tweeter mounted on the top 15. I have the M3 Triode Master with the dipole coaxial tweeter. The mids on the M3's vs the Omens are on an entirely different level. My Omens would get shouty and harsh at ~90db, but the M3's stay clear and easy well past healthy listening levels.

I've actually been considering selling my M3TM's to upgrade to the X-series, but the lights went out on my trusty Marantz 4300 and I need to get a new amp(s) before I go further down the rabbit hole.

Thanks for pointing out that M3TM has a coaxial tweeter.  Unlike the Sapphire, it is coaxial and most pictures have the driver covered so I only see two big black circles.

But this leads me to wonder the difference between the M3TM vs the Sapphire, and which one is better.

[dealaddict]

Dealaddict,
Keep in mind that Clayton shows both the Sapphires and the X's with an LTA amp that puts out 12 watts.  I bought the LTA mono and paired it with a Don Sach pre and it simply stunned me.  This, after using a 65 watt  Crimson 275 tube amp and a pair of high current Odyssey monos with 185k ohms of high quality capacitance.  Never felt I was short of headroom or volume.  At 97 sensitivity you can drive with just about anything of good quality.  It's not watts, its quality of watts.

Yes, i know.  That’s why I think it should be ok for me based on the type of music and the volume I listen.  When listening to CD, the volume knob of my 18 watt Almarro is between 7 and 8 o’clock.  When streaming from my computer, I can lower the volume in the player, and the volume know will be at 10 or 11, never pass 12 o’clock.

My main question now is ... would the M3TM is good enough for me, or I should bite the bullet and get the X5.  Very often I hear people use separate subwoofer to compensate for full range drivers or for Magnepans.  But it is not cheap to buy two subwoofers.  In this case, the extra money for X5 seems not bad.  The problem is, I don’t know if I need the subwoofer given the type of music I listen to, or how much I actually missed without a subwoofer.  I guess I will only know after I try it at home.

[geerock]

Dealaddict,
You got 60 days of listening.   I know it's no picnic to ship back, but it is a trial period that gives you a chance to give them a good workout.