Treatment ideas for less than stellar room

ejb · « **on:** 18 Feb 2005, 11:53 pm »

I've been lurking on this forum for a while and it seems like there are many folks with great ideas. So I thought I'd shamelessly tap into the collective wisdom.

The good news is that I have a more or less dedicated room for audio and video. The bad new is that the room size and layout is less than stellar. Although I'm not unhappy with the sound in the room, I imagine I could do a lot better with perhaps even some simple acoustic improvements. But where to start?

The room is smallish and square-ish at 11x11 feet, has openings to other areas, a brick fireplace and some cavernous areas, so maybe "less than stellar is an understatement.

See the picture for details. Highlights are:

- Equipment closet with gear, with bifolding door.
- Plasma screen between speakers.
- Two built-in bookcases with a brick fireplace in between.
- No space behind the couch.
- Cavernous bar area next to couch.
- Sheetrock walls.
- Hardwood floor with rug.
- Cavernous space in ceiling leading to 4x4 skylight in center of room.
- A not unreasonable, but present WAF.

Looking forward to your suggestions! Much appreciated...

kaxixi · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Feb 2005, 01:09 am »

I suggest a phicus benji to the left of the couch, between the bar and the door. They have phenomenal acoustic properties (i.e., they look cool).

Also, are the bookcases full of books?

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Feb 2005, 11:12 am »

Welcome ejb,

So what are you're acoustical complaints?

Nice sketch, seems like a pleasant room (acoustics aside).

Can we assume that this is a stereo/HT setup?

Could you describe the construction/finishes of the ceiling, walls, and floor?

Campindog · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Feb 2005, 01:19 pm »

A great place to start is Ethan Winer's FAQ on basic room acoustics.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

You're going to want to do some bass traping with rigid fiberglass and absorbtion at the first refelction points.

Tell us more about the room though.

ejb · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Feb 2005, 10:02 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd say my main acoustical complaint is that imaging isn't as good as I'd like it to be. Bass is fine, the NHT 2.9s go deep, but they never seem boomy or inappropriate in this room. The tonality seems reasonably balanced, but I think the sound staging could be better.

I'll try to answer your questions about the room:

The bookcases are partially filled with books, except for a few shelves that have picture frames and various knick knacks.

The set up is indeed for stereo and HT, I enjoy both but care more about music than movies, so I left the center/surround speaker placement out of the sketch.

The house construction is mid 1940's wood frame with plastered walls. The room has paneled wainscoting. The ceiling is plastered, except for the drywall cutout for the skylight 3 feet above the ceiling. The ceilings have are lightly textured, but no "popcorn". There's a 4" crown molding. The hardwood floor on top of a wood subfloor, over a 2 foot or so crawl space.

Since pictures are worth more than 1K words:

From South East side of the room:

From North East side of the room:

From North West side of the room:

Again, I appreciate your comments.

youngho · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Feb 2005, 10:39 pm »

ejb: This room seems to me problematic from several respects, but your primary complaint is related to imaging. Two reasons for this:

1. The distance between the mains looks like it's less than the distance from each main to the listener. You may experience better imaging if you can change that ratio by moving the couch forward (which may also result in less boominess from sitting near the rear wall), perhaps so that the back of the couch is flush with the sides of the fireplace and bar but not so that the listener is midpoint between the front and back walls. This would put one listener into the "sweet spot" for nearfield listening. With more than one viewer or listener, use of Dolby PLII or PLIIx might be better by anchoring the image to the center channel and offsetting the effect of sitting closer to one speaker than the other.

2. The primary reflection points seem to be mostly untreated. Treating these reflections in this room wouldn't be the easiest thing but might help reduce unwanted directional cues that distract from the main speakers.

I'd definitely consider moving the couch forward and slightly to its right as a basic, easy first step.

woodsyi · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 02:30 pm »

Ejb,

You have a serious problem and you can't do a thing about it. For now, get a stool, place it in the sweet spot (front and right of the center of sofa), enjoy the music when you are alone and then move the stool back in the closet when you are done. This is a classic case of a low ART (acoustic room treatment) high WAF ratio. On a scale of 10 being a room expertly treated with fiberglass tiles, tube traps, diffusors, panels and foams of clashing colors and shapes by a single man married to sound quality to 1 being Martha Stewart's living room with hidden Bose radio, I would say you are at 3 (would be 2 if you didn't get to hang up the surround speakers). Congratulations on a very nicely decorated room!

Let your significant other know how you sacrifice your love for perfect sound everyday just to please her.

Keep building up the credit until you get a chance to convert a room with better dimensions as a dedicated listening room. Then, and only then, you can let yourself go hog wild with all kinds of measurements, modal calculations and treatment options. Or better yet, you can get an unfinished room and really get off the deep end by designing all six walls and their composition!

BillyM · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 04:57 pm »

I agree with the others who suggest moving away from the wall, but trying to move a couch might be no-man's land... My setup is very similar in that I cannot move the speakers any further apart, and the couch is against the wall. ...every time I get a new CD, or am feeling unusually musical, I whip out the folding chair.

You want him to sit on a stool? Not cool, borderline cruel!

Target Folding Mesh Recliner

Set that bad-boy up right in front of the couch and enjoy. Yes, it does have fabric behind the head, but mesh should affect imaging and depth least of all. ...and when the significant-other comes home, fold that puppy up and toss it in the closet behind your left speaker.

--BillyM

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 06:37 pm »

I would agree a great way to get better imaging would be to have that folding chair ready when you want to do serious listening.

The nice thing about your two side walls is they are not entirely parallel. One of those walls is broken up quite a bit by the brick fireplace and book shelves. If they were two parallel flat walls, you might be more inclined to treat them with fiberglass panels.

After the chair deal, I might just try and get a nice big 4' x 4' square of rigid fiberglass that's 1"-2" thick. Cover it in a nice porous fabric that your wife helps you pick out(speaker grille cloth works great but any porous fabric will do) Once you have this baby covered, just place it underneath that huge green fan on the back wall. This will help with echo between the front and rear walls. It won't look bad either.

you've got a tough room to treat for bass as I don't think you'll be able to get away with anything that will work in that room for bass. Sitting forward might help like was suggested earlier but you'll have to experiment.

Good luck!

woodsyi · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 09:02 pm »

I wasn't trying to be cruel by suggesting a stool!

I just thought that moving that sofa into the room would not be acceptable to the person responsible for the decor. I just put 10 Real Traps up in my room. I just don't see them in this room. I would agree with Heavystarch that placing a compressed fiberboard tastefully covered under the fan would help with mids and highs if you get away from the wall a little for listening. Leaving the fireplace screen partially open (creating defraction) and opening the door on the other side would take care of first reflection points on the side. Skylight domer should take care of the top. With so many openings I don't think there would be any standing waves and significant modes. Rather, I would think you would have to get at least a pair of serious subwoofer to get bass volume without the normal resonance boost of an enclosed space.

ejb · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Feb 2005, 05:37 am »

Well, after being pretty dang uncomfortable on that stool for a while, I figured I look into the fiberglass panel option

In an earlier reference I read about Owens-Corning 703 and 705, would you pick one over the other in this case, or something else completely? Getting a large panel behind the couch shouldn't be too hard to do. Would you do something similar on the front wall as well, or wouldn't that make much difference? I realize we're talking babysteps here...

Also, since the walls are not parallel and the one with the fire place would be a bit harder to do much with anyway, would it make sense to treat the other wall? Or would that create more problems than it's worth?

By the way, you guys *are* a funny bunch... I'll follow your advice to take credit for my acoustic suffering and convert into an actual dedicated listening room, just as soon as SoCal real estate prices dip below 1 gazillion per square inch. But maybe I can climb from a 3 to a 4 or perhaps even a 5 in the mean time.

And I'll be on the lookout for a comfy folding chair. Never though I'd say those words in the same sentence.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Feb 2005, 06:23 am »

we are a bunch of loonies here

The 703 is what you would want to use under the fan.

705 and 706 are much higher densities and are only useful for lower frequency absorption. Lower density stuff like the 703 will absorb mid/high frequencies much better.

You can use speaker grille cloth to cover the fiberglass panel and hang it like a picture with the fan attached to the front.

Here is a link to some fine speaker grille cloth at PartsExpress.com (click on picture). There is white, black, brown and grey.

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Feb 2005, 02:06 pm »

Ejb,

For 2 channel listening I think a movable mid/high absorber like Ethan's Micro or HF Mini on stands could be placed between the speakers. For movies or mc listening, I think some kind of an acoustic wainscoting is needed to abosorb and diffuse mid/highs in the front. I think your plasma screen is high enough not to reflect directly back...

By the way, welcome to AC and great to have someone with a sense of humor.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Feb 2005, 11:42 pm »

Here are some gorgeous renderings that I did real quick of your room with a couple more ideas.

I'd just get some 703 panels or equivelant from other manufacturers and get it in 1" thickness (2" is fine too but will look bulkier).

Cut it up to place in the edges of skylight/domelight and also place a piece on the ceiling just in front of the dome light right above your speakers. Just a 2ft x 4ft piece there.

Do the same behind your plasma screen or have it hiding in the closet to pull out for serious listening.

Also I got to looking at your room some more and maybe put a nice square piece behind that mirror on the wall just to try it out. Don't know if it will do much but again you might be able to visually get away with a large frame around the frame so to speak...something like the fan frame idea.

I wouldn't worry at all about your fireplace and bookshelves. They diffuse much of the sound as they aren't flat surfaces. Maybe you want to cut up some pieces of 1" thick 703, cover it in white grille cloth and put in the openings of the bookcases and put your books and decorations in front of those. It will offer a bit more absorption but not overpowering amounts of damping that your room sounds dead. But it would be fun to try and it won't visually hurt the room either.

ejb · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 12:17 am »

Thanks for the further replies, I really appreciate your insights.

Looks like I've got a nice weekend project coming up, with a cool rendering to get it started. (wife: "what the heck are you doing"? me, frantically pointing at audiocircle tread: "them's the blueprints, I got it of the Internet, how bad can it be?"). I'll report back with results.

Just a final note, it strikes me that there is some similarity between applying acoustic treatment and building a room with padded walls... Coincidence? I think not.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 02:34 am »

Matching outfits for our acoustically isolated rooms are available on

ejb · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 03:42 am »

Hah! That's what I'm talking about!

youngho · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 04:23 am »

Just out of curiosity, was it impossible to move the couch forward and to the right?

ZMan · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Feb 2005, 04:31 pm »

Read the following discussion from the VMPS Circle, it may prove heplful in your type of room.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=14447

Sometimes treating the Speaker, rather than the room is the only option.

Z