horn tweeter, taming brightness question

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ric

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #20 on: 4 Apr 2020, 01:40 pm »
Thanks Rod,
When I looked up foam they (the internet) mentioned "reticulated" foam (new to me) but also said that if you can blow through it ( the foam) it has a lot of air which is a good thing for this situation. I tried the "magic eraser" and it is easy to blow through, and it does work for taming highs. So now comes the experimental phase where I try different thicknesses and ways of applying it to find a happy medium, as I would would like to listen to "pusher man" without having it push my hearing over the brink!

Rocket

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #21 on: 5 Apr 2020, 05:46 am »
Hi Ric,

Good luck.  Keep experimenting I'm sure it will work out.  I'm pretty much into vinyl these days as all my favourite music is from the 1970's and 1980's.  Sounds pretty slick on my turntable.  The odd album sounds bright but I figure its just the recording as most sound very good.  I always buy mofi records or good quality remasters.

I've  also downgraded my system to a more modest one and I'm enjoying music more.   Currently my system is:

Denon dp 1200 with ortofon bronze cartridge
diy tube phonestage
peach tree audio nova 150
Nuforce s9 speakers.




Cheers Rod

ric

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #22 on: 5 Apr 2020, 03:02 pm »
Nice setup, I'm noticing your horns do not have metal, but wood as a means for dispersing the sound, and there's something about using aluminum around speakers and horn tweeters that I just don't trust. The magic eraser does work, but I'd still like to experiment. I certainly have the time to do it, Cheers!

ric

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #23 on: 9 Apr 2020, 01:30 pm »
Just in case anyone reads this and is interested. I did a little research and found a person (Geddes) who has done a lot of study and apparently used to sell "plugs" for horn tweeters. Another person said he (Geddes) uses 20ppi mesh/screen like the type they use for fish tanks--very large area for air. Last night I tried what I had around the house (besides the magic eraser) and used a plastic tuffy type scrubber cut into a 2" piece. At first I used a larger piece and it did tame the tizziness in the highs but also added a little bit of upper midrange tone that was noticeable. Then I cut it down to about 1.5" and...I am like what I hear (or rightly don't hear) as any high frequency tizziness is lessened without affecting other frequencies. Now I have on order some of the 20ppi fish tank filter and look forward to using it.

Shakeydeal

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #24 on: 9 Apr 2020, 01:44 pm »
It really sounds like you created this issue with all the mods.

But on another note. These compression drivers aren't really horns, but more like a wave guide. Similar effect I suppose. Hope you figure it out.

Shakey


ric

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #25 on: 9 Apr 2020, 01:58 pm »
Yes, that may be, with the upgrades, but I suspect that it is also that when I hear more (openness, fullness, soundstaging, etc.) that my ears will also notice the negatives as well as the positives. And what I am referring to tends to be with cd's and poorly recorded vinyl. The point (I hope) is that if there is a way to reduce (on occasion) tizziness associated with a bright recording and there is a quick and easy way to ameliorate the problem, then hopefully others may benefit, no matter how the problem happens in the first place. I have no regrets about the upgrades as I think they have really improved the overall sound in a huge way.

Shakeydeal

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #26 on: 9 Apr 2020, 02:04 pm »
I had a similar issue with Danny Ritchie's Super V speakers. The P Audio coaxial tended to be harsh and bright on many recordings. I tried a few things, but eventually just gave up and moved on.

Shakey



Rusty Jefferson

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #27 on: 18 Apr 2020, 05:24 pm »
Ric, I saw your recent post in someone else's thread asking the same question as here. Sorry you're having trouble getting what you'd like from the speakers.

The small aluminum horn on your Spatials is likely not the culprit. Could it be ringing?  Sure, but it's so small and light, I doubt it's as much the issue compared to perhaps the crossover modification, your cabling, and or other equipment choices.  Think about all those folks who love Altec speakers with large aluminum horns. Do they ring? You bet. Best pair of Altecs I've heard had extensive damping applied to the exterior of the horns, however most owners are able to get the sound they're after with cable, equipment, and if knowledgeable, crossover mods.

As we haven't discussed other aspects of your system yet, if you're using an analytical dac, silver cabling, and solid state amplification, all things that can accentuate treble hardness, it's not likely putting some damping on the aluminum will make a major improvement. You'll also be limited to how much you can do before it effects the woofer because  of the concentric mounting.

The felt rings linked to earlier appear to be diffraction rings meant to be placed on the speaker cabinet (not the driver) that help reduce high frequency cabinet diffraction, a completely different issue.  A damping product would be something like the "No-Rez" damping sold on the GR Research circle. It likely won't hurt to try it, and may help a little if the horn is ringing, but I'd be looking at other places for improvement.

rollo

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #28 on: 18 Apr 2020, 05:42 pm »
Just thought I'd ask, the problem being on my Spatial M3TS OB speakers, I believe it has a horn type tweeter that uses what looks like an aluminum flare (approx. 1.25" to 1.875", .875" deep). I have noticed on certain recordings there is a brightness (both on cd and vinyl at times) that I suspect has some (not all) to do with the metal horn. Recently I carved out a magic eraser type material and put it around the flange, and it does indeed work, taming that occasional cd brightness, of course at the expense of some of the open, airy sound.
    Would anyone recommend another type of material (wool, felt, etc.) to use in order to find a happy medium. The good thing is that what I made with the magic eraser can be popped in and out when brightness becomes overbearing.
    And second question would be that there is a circular aluminum bevel around the 15" speaker (about 1.375" deep, 45 deg angle). Would there be any benefit/reasoning to apply some type of material to that surface?
    Thanks for your help/comments!


   Ric it might be prudent to address your digital set up. Those tweeters are extremely revealing. I would look at front end. Do not see many others pointing out brightness in their set up. If ya must felt it.


charles

Joseph Crowe

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #29 on: 18 Apr 2020, 07:23 pm »
Ric, can you share a picture of the metal horn so that we assess the situation? 
Also, can you measure the speaker’s frequency response in REW?  That will establish a benchmark. 

Joseph Crowe

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #30 on: 18 Apr 2020, 07:54 pm »
This video I made a few years ago may relate to the subject.  Excessive sibilance could certainly be caused by reflections at the transitional point between the HF horn and LF voice coil former.  Adding 1mm thick foam paper will alleviate this issue.  Also worth noting is that no amount of EQ or room treatment will help since this is a time domain issue within the first 1 millisecond of the speaker's impulse response. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hD1j1DrKrM

ric

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #31 on: 19 Apr 2020, 01:45 pm »
Thank you for those helpful comments! I have since ordered and installed a pair of L-pads and it appears problem solved. A while back I had replaced the parts express 6.8 cap with Jupiter parts--liked the sound so much I replaced the 68uf caps with Jupiter--liked the sound so much I replaced the resistor with Pace resistor (30 ohm, I think) to match the original.
My guess is that in replacing the resistor even though it is the same rating, it may have bumped up the db by 1 or 2db to the point where I was hearing what I described before--something just didn't sound quite right.
   The L-pads may not be the correct fix, but right now they seem to be doing the job and everything sounds great. Bright recordings are less bright and are now at least listenable, so thanks all for your help.
   Any comments of why I should not use L-pads are appreciated, but my electronics knowledge is extremely limited to say the least. Regarding the horn loaded compression driver--just a knee jerk reaction to aluminum. I still have to explore that area and the beveled circle (also aluminum) that surrounds the 15"speaker. Thank you!

nickd

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #32 on: 19 Apr 2020, 04:02 pm »
Ric,
Glad to see the L pads helped tame your bright spot. They are not generally a ultra high end part, but many use them and the adjustable resistance can really help for system & room issues.

If it works I would leave them in place. You can also measure across the L pad terminals at the setting you prefer and order some mills resistors that match if you’re a purest. 

I have found one of the golden rules applies in Audio, as it does in other areas of life. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.