horn tweeter, taming brightness question

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ric

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horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« on: 2 Apr 2020, 01:55 pm »
Just thought I'd ask, the problem being on my Spatial M3TS OB speakers, I believe it has a horn type tweeter that uses what looks like an aluminum flare (approx. 1.25" to 1.875", .875" deep). I have noticed on certain recordings there is a brightness (both on cd and vinyl at times) that I suspect has some (not all) to do with the metal horn. Recently I carved out a magic eraser type material and put it around the flange, and it does indeed work, taming that occasional cd brightness, of course at the expense of some of the open, airy sound.
    Would anyone recommend another type of material (wool, felt, etc.) to use in order to find a happy medium. The good thing is that what I made with the magic eraser can be popped in and out when brightness becomes overbearing.
    And second question would be that there is a circular aluminum bevel around the 15" speaker (about 1.375" deep, 45 deg angle). Would there be any benefit/reasoning to apply some type of material to that surface?
    Thanks for your help/comments!

Wind Chaser

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #1 on: 2 Apr 2020, 02:30 pm »
If I felt that were an issue I'd look at judicious EQ or tweaking the crossover instead. :popcorn:

Shakeydeal

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #2 on: 2 Apr 2020, 02:51 pm »
I wouldn't modify the tweeter, and I certainly wouldn't use EQ. I would look at the room first. Is your room lively with hardwood floors and/or not much overstuffed furniture? Do you have an echo when you speak loudly or clap?

Try some diffusion on the rear wall and maybe some absorption at the first reflection points on the side walls if you haven't already tried that. Also some echo tunes or similar in the upper corners. You might also try altering the toe in angle. Position them so that they cross slightly behind your head.

These speakers aren't known for being overly bright. I would look at other things first.

One other thing. You posted this in the "enclosures" forum, and your speakers have no enclosure. Try the OB forum or the Spatial forum for more suggestions.

Shakey

rollo

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #3 on: 2 Apr 2020, 03:08 pm »
    That speaker is not bright. The culprit is elsewhere. Try different positioning. Consult Spatial.


charles

Wind Chaser

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #4 on: 2 Apr 2020, 03:37 pm »
I certainly wouldn't use EQ. I would look at the room first.

Why wouldn’t you use EQ?

Normally I would suggest looking at the room, but with 80 degrees of constant/ controlled directivity, the room is much less of a concern than it is with conventional tweeters. :D

FullRangeMan

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #5 on: 2 Apr 2020, 03:46 pm »
You could try a real wood horn.

Wind Chaser

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #6 on: 2 Apr 2020, 04:03 pm »
No, he can’t. You’re obviously not familiar with his speakers.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #7 on: 2 Apr 2020, 06:02 pm »
ric, perhaps you could share more information about your system.  Many things can cause brightness in a system, including cable/wire selection, component selection, etc. and compression drivers can be ruthless in revealing those characteristics.

rollo

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #8 on: 2 Apr 2020, 06:07 pm »
ric, perhaps you could share more information about your system.  Many things can cause brightness in a system, including cable/wire selection, component selection, etc. and compression drivers can be ruthless in revealing those characteristics.


  Exactly +1

charles

Wind Chaser

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #9 on: 2 Apr 2020, 09:18 pm »
If I'm not mistaken, he also did extensive crossover modifications using top tier no cost objection parts. Even if part for part the spec is identical, the actual measurement of each part can be off enough from the original to produce a somewhat different result. The more parts one changes, the more potential there is for the sum of these changes to deviate further from the original spec of the network.

FullRangeMan

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #10 on: 2 Apr 2020, 10:55 pm »
No, he can’t. You’re obviously not familiar with his speakers.
Do there is no possible CNC copy this piece?

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #11 on: 2 Apr 2020, 11:32 pm »
If I'm not mistaken, he also did extensive crossover modifications using top tier no cost objection parts......
If that's the case, obviously one has to be sure they use the most appropriate parts and not just expensive parts.  :D  Using say Mundorf capacitors instead  of Jupiter or Duelunds in the tweeter circuit could lead to a brightness issue, especially if it hadn't been present before the crossover rebuild.

Jon L

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #12 on: 3 Apr 2020, 02:19 am »
Does anyone know who OEM's M3's compression driver?   
And am I correct in thinking the top woofer that acts as directivity horn DOES produce bass, same bass as lower woofer through same crossover point? 

FullRangeMan

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #13 on: 3 Apr 2020, 02:25 am »
Chances are it is Eminence as the woofers.

Shakeydeal

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #14 on: 3 Apr 2020, 08:14 am »
I guess I forgot about the modded xovers. In that case, all bets are off. There could be any one part that’s upsetting the Apple cart. I have heard upgraded crossovers work in some cases,  and I have also heard things go completely wrong.

This could be a case of “you gets what you gets”.........

Shakey

Rocket

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #15 on: 3 Apr 2020, 10:51 am »
Hi Guys,

Have you thought that the recording may not be that good. I've heard plenty of cd's that sound compressed and or bright.  Might be worth a try.

Cheers Rod

Letitroll98

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #16 on: 3 Apr 2020, 12:36 pm »
To the original question there was a former member here who made absorbtion rings for tweeters made from a particular weight of wool felt.  I can't recall the exact type he used, but he was emphatic that he had experimented with multiple materials and his choice was the best by far.  Perhaps someone can remember who he was and we could search his posts for an answer?  He sold quite a few as a hobby here, don't believe he charged more than cost.   My speakers came with a felt ring from the factory so I never needed to purchase anything.

richidoo

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #17 on: 3 Apr 2020, 01:06 pm »
Dan, it was jimdgoulding, diffractionbegone.com

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=46897.0

ric

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Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #18 on: 3 Apr 2020, 02:13 pm »
Thanks for the comments. I am not talking about all recordings sounding bright, etched or shrill. For instance, Teodross Avery cd, his sax is recorded a bit loud and the rest of the band sounds good, but on certain passages it's too bright. Super Fly remastered cd, sounds good but also can be too compressed and bright. Even certain classical pieces can be bright with the strings. Steven Stone, in his recent review of the Spatials (x2?) commented that his pair of M3's sounded bright at certain frequencies.
    What I am hearing is on maybe 5-10% of what I listen to. Good recordings sound great! But not so good recordings...I also hear the dull sounds of cars/trucks in the background on many classical chamber recordings, but that does not hurt my ears!
For now I guess I'm content to keep these high frequency tamers on hand and pop them in when that hardness shows up. It just seems like I may be hearing the bad with the good on certain recordings. Thanks for your help!

Rocket

Re: horn tweeter, taming brightness question
« Reply #19 on: 3 Apr 2020, 03:39 pm »
Hi Ric,

This is a common problem... Basically your system is too revealing of poor quality recordings.  Rubbish in rubbish out is my anology.

Good luck.

Cheers Rod