[Steve]

Can anyone name a tube brand that sounds closest to the Winged C KT-88s manufactured in
St. Petersburg? I have tried several brands but no success as of yet.

Thanks.
steve

[richidoo]

Hey Steve! I hope you are well!

I used the famous "Winged-C" 6550s from Svetlana (SED) years ago but I didn't know they ever made a KT88. That Svetlana factory closed a while back so no more winged-C.

My favorite current production KT88 is Gold Lion KT-88, which is made by the American-owned company New Sensor in Saratov, Russia, the largest tube factory in the world, where they also make Electro Harmonix. Sovtek, Tung Sol, etc. Gold Lion is their top line. I buy them matched from Jim McShane. IMO they are every bit as good as the old 6550C, maybe a touch smoother.

Commie Shuguang Black Treasure KT88 are probably very good based on my good experiences with their other tubes, but I've never tried or heard them.

[Steve]

Hey Steve! I hope you are well!

I used the famous "Winged-C" 6550s from Svetlana (SED) years ago but I didn't know they ever made a KT88. That Svetlana factory closed a while back so no more winged-C.

My favorite current production KT88 is Gold Lion KT-88, which is made by the American-owned company New Sensor in Saratov, Russia, the largest tube factory in the world, where they also make Electro Harmonix. Sovtek, Tung Sol, etc. Gold Lion is their top line. I buy them matched from Jim McShane. IMO they are every bit as good as the old 6550C, maybe a touch smoother.

Commie Shuguang Black Treasure KT88 are probably very good based on my good experiences with their other tubes, but I've never tried or heard them.

Good to hear from you Rich as well. Yep, I used the Winged C KT88s back at the beginning of the millenium, and suddenly the factory closed, a real bummer. I still have 7, which has a little bit more highs than their 6550s. (I have 6 of their 6550s as well.) The replacement SEDs sound quite different than the Winged Cs.

I have tried several other brands and they are somewhat different sounding. I am specifically looking for a sound alike and  was hoping to stay relatively inexpensive, but no luck so far. So far tried JJs, Penta, SEDs, Sovtek and new Tung Sol 6550,  but no luck.

cheers and miss your input over there. 

steve

[Tyson]

Try the Shuguang Treasure KT88s.  They have a similar big, bold sound, and even better tonality. 

[Steve]

Hi Tyson,

I have been a little quiet about my intentions. I am attempting to find a combination of tubes that will give superior
sonic performance without breaking the bank. The treasures will cost right up there with the Winged C 6550s.

So far, I have been able to match some combinations pretty close to my reference, but needed a switch to just slightly alter the power supply for each combination. Maybe I am just being too picky. And I have been able to accomplish such without spending $600.00 or more on tubes.

My reference has been the Winged C KT88/Orange letter Amperex 6dj8 PQ from Holland. Really incredible, accurate, natural sounding in my monoblock amplifier design. I have been able to come really really close with the JJ/JJ combination, SED/JJ with some PS adjustment via switch, and even Penta KT88/JJ combo with switchable PS adjustment, in descending order.

I am just checking to see if there are anymore output tubes out there I could try that won't break the bank, give superior music reproduction, all the while saving the music lover money.

cheers
steve

[geerock]

Try the Shuguang Treasure KT88s.  They have a similar big, bold sound, and even better tonality.

The newest iteration of the KT88 from Shuguang is the Dawning series WEKT88 PLUS.  I heard the Don Sachs Kootenay amp that had these and they were stunning.  Apparently some top engineers from China have formed a group and are trying to reproduce some of the finest tubes, using top of the line material, and new tooling.  They are looking to make the best current production tubes on the market today.  I have the Dawning series  WE6SN7 PLUS tubes in my pre amp and they truly are a great sounding tube.  Keep in mind that I previously wouldn't have given you a dime for any Chinese tube in the past, but these things are very nice.  I've ordered a quad of the newest KT88's from them for a Carver 275 I have.  As far as how they compare in sound to the winged C's?  I can't help you there.

[richidoo]

^ 

Back when I was using 12AU7s in my EE Minimax Preamp, I found the stock Shuguang cheapo $8 tube was the best for clarity, tone and balance of all the vintage, modern and exotic tubes I tried. But I was not seeking the warm, syrupy Amperex sound that most people prefer and the Shuguangs were the lowest distortion I had found. I smiled later when I read a post from SY on diyaudio who found Shuguang 12AU7 to have the lowest distortion of all 12AU7s he measured. But as my mastering engineer once said, "tubes are for adding distortion, not lowering it!" Chasing low distortion from tube amplifier is not for the meek and even harder on a budget.

[Steve]

^ 

Back when I was using 12AU7s in my EE Minimax Preamp, I found the stock Shuguang cheapo $8 tube was the best for clarity, tone and balance of all the vintage, modern and exotic tubes I tried. But I was not seeking the warm, syrupy Amperex sound that most people prefer and the Shuguangs were the lowest distortion I had found. I smiled later when I read a post from SY on diyaudio who found Shuguang 12AU7 to have the lowest distortion of all 12AU7s he measured. But as my mastering engineer once said, "tubes are for adding distortion, not lowering it!" Chasing low distortion from tube amplifier is not for the meek and even harder on a budget.

Interesting. I have never found the Amperex tubes to be syrupy, but maybe it is a matter of circuit design and/or
associated parts used. Some also design for that.

Anyway, I am using the tube as one input and dual output "differential" configuration in my monoblock amps. (I can't remember the term.) In my amp, using the JJ E88cc, I can create over 100 volts P-P with less than 0,05% total
harmonic distortion. Second harmonic (syrupy tendency) and third harmonics are basically gone and the sound is
wonderful, natural, and clean.

I mention using the JJ E88cc because it produces approximately 1/9th the distortion (18db less) of any
other tube I have ever measured under each tube's most optimum conditions (2 volts rms output).
Caveat: the extremely low distortion makes this tube much much more difficult to design for optimum results.
But the results are spectacular.

cheers
steve

[richidoo]

I remember that amperex tube glowed abnormally bright, maybe it was defective.

You mentioning the JJ 6922 reminded me that Stuart's low distortion tube test that I mentioned above was actually for 12AT7, not 12AU7. And his JJ AT7 did by far the best, by similar margin as your JJ e88 tests. I can't find his article on diy, so it must have been on his old website.  So I tried the JJ 12AT7 gold pins and they were awesome, but they would get noisy after a couple months. Weirder still they self-healed with a couple weeks off then were quiet again for several months. Typical JJ love/hate story.

I think you would like the Gold Lion KT-88 for the sound and build quality but they aren't cheap, my seller gets $114/pr!

[opnly bafld]

I think you would like the Gold Lion KT-88 for the sound and build quality but they aren't cheap, my seller gets $114/pr!

 

[Freo-1]

Hi Tyson,

I have been a little quiet about my intentions. I am attempting to find a combination of tubes that will give superior
sonic performance without breaking the bank. The treasures will cost right up there with the Winged C 6550s.

So far, I have been able to match some combinations pretty close to my reference, but needed a switch to just slightly alter the power supply for each combination. Maybe I am just being too picky. And I have been able to accomplish such without spending $600.00 or more on tubes.

My reference has been the Winged C KT88/Orange letter Amperex 6dj8 PQ from Holland. Really incredible, accurate, natural sounding in my monoblock amplifier design. I have been able to come really really close with the JJ/JJ combination, SED/JJ with some PS adjustment via switch, and even Penta KT88/JJ combo with switchable PS adjustment, in descending order.

I am just checking to see if there are anymore output tubes out there I could try that won't break the bank, give superior music reproduction, all the while saving the music lover money.

cheers
steve

For output tubes, hard to beat the 807/1625 tube.  I've a large number of NOS from WW2 that are great.   I use 6BL7 for driver tubes. 


Also use the 8552 for output tubes.  Not quite as reliable as the 1625, but still pretty good overall. 

[FullRangeMan]

The Russian Ulianov 1625 have gone in my Russian supply shop
http://www.gstube.com/catalog/?key=1625&submit=Find

[Steve]

The Russian Ulianov 1625 have gone in my Russian supply shop
http://www.gstube.com/catalog/?key=1625&submit=Find

Yes FRM, I remember the 807 and 1625 back in the early 60s on. Thanks for bringing it up. Unfortunately, the plate dissipation is not high enough for my monoblocks. Tube sockets are also quite different from Octals. I certainly have
fond memories of that tube FRM.

Onward now,,, working with 20 year old, but little hours Pentas (Shuguang manufacturer), it had the thinnest
tonal balanced compared to other KT88s, but filling it out (vs the other KT88s) with some adjustments, have them
sounding absolutely amazing. The others I worked with also sound so good that I can use them and not feel cheated.
 
However, I am going to have to incorporate the switches if I want to use all the tubes at my disposal. I don't lose
anything, the switches are not located in the "primary" signal circuitry as most use that term. But with the switches,
I can now use at least three output and input tube combinations without losing virtually any sonic advantage. Of
course, there is a brand or two that I have checked that did not make the grade no matter what.

With different tubes in storage just sitting there (except Shuguangs). can one design an amp that can use
multiple tubes with equal, or near equal effectiveness?

Following that excercise, can new production tubes equal the NOS in sonic quality? Definitely yes.

cheers

steve

[Steve]

I remember that amperex tube glowed abnormally bright, maybe it was defective.

Maybe not Rich. I now remember some years back checking an Amperex and it had a bloated bottom end. Does that
accurately describe what you found?

You mentioning the JJ 6922 reminded me that Stuart's low distortion tube test that I mentioned above was actually for 12AT7, not 12AU7. And his JJ AT7 did by far the best, by similar margin as your JJ e88 tests. I can't find his article on diy, so it must have been on his old website.  So I tried the JJ 12AT7 gold pins and they were awesome, but they would get noisy after a couple months. Weirder still they self-healed with a couple weeks off then were quiet again for several months. Typical JJ love/hate story.

Very interesting. Some years ago I performed some distortion tests on some various 12at7s, and they had by far the
highest distortion in the 12xx7 family line. I think I remember testing the JJ brand 12at7s and concluded the same. Nice
work.

I think you would like the Gold Lion KT-88 for the sound and build quality but they aren't cheap, my seller gets $114/pr!

That is the same price as the Penta KT88s I saw. I wonder if they are from the same tube manufacturer, Shuguang?

cheers

steve

[FullRangeMan]

An odd forgoted tube is the KT90 50W dissipation and low price, plenty of 12W at conservative use.

[richidoo]

Maybe not Rich. I now remember some years back checking an Amperex and it had a bloated bottom end. Does that
accurately describe what you found?

I don't remember the bass, I just remember that I didn't listen to it much as the tone was too warm. This is like 13 years ago. 

Very interesting. Some years ago I performed some distortion tests on some various 12at7s, and they had by far the
highest distortion in the 12xx7 family line. I think I remember testing the JJ brand 12at7s and concluded the same. Nice
work.

I can't find Stuart Yaniger's (SY) original article/post on his website or his old stomping grounds diyaudio.com, but he refers to it here.

That is the same price as the Penta KT88s I saw. I wonder if they are from the same tube manufacturer, Shuguang?

Gold Lion is a brand of New Sensor in Russia.

[FullRangeMan]

From Jac Music:
What is a good new made KT88 to use for HiFi?
What follows is only my personal opinion, from selling tubes since the last 25 years. I would prefer them in this order. Please excuse me for being a bit direct, but I do not want to contribute to any fairy tales and other kind of obscure stories. So what is good is good, and what is bad is bad, I just say it here.

Number1:
GENALEX. Made in England.
NOS with good test data, which is all you need. As you can blindly trust most other data, such as leakage etc. The holy grail of course, not available, and no realistic solution for that reason.

Be careful with used tubes of this kind, because prices are still very high, but a great brand will not protect you from being sold tubes at the end of life. I would say, this is something to buy only from reliable professionals. And typically not buy it on Ebay without return option.

Number2:
Svetlana C-Logo KT88. Hard to get, but possible. Looking for NOS.... your hunt may be successful.
Keep apart the Winged-C Svetlana which are the ones made by Svetlana, and the S-LOGO not made by Svetlana at all, by made by REFLEKTOR and sold by NEW SENSOR. In fact Svetlana Petersburg sued New Sensor for this, and the result was some kind of arrangement. Just the C-logo, new Sensor did not get under their control. Also the words 'St. Petersburg' may only be used if made there indeed. So the C-Logo is the proof for genuine tubes from St. Petersburg. So my number #2 choice here is the original WINGED-C Svetlana.

Number3:
The most realistic good choice: Chinese KT88.

These seem to have the best price / performance ratio, but the Chinese mix a few bad tubes under the good, always. They get away with that, and they know it. So what leaves the factory, is a strange mix of mainly good tubes, and a few bad ones amongst them. Unclear matching, and not enough burn in. This makes them very suited for professional sellers that have really good equipment. (Meaning not just a Hickok tester). In industry this is called 'uptesting'. So a good dealer separates the bad from the good, and offer the good ones to his loyal customers, with fine matching data. From a lot of 100, you can get a good selection of such quads. For the less good ones there is a nice market on Ebay, where good product feedback is for low price and fast shipment anyway. What you see pictured here, is the VALVE ART KT88, which is a Shuguang Factory Tube. Shuguang is the largest tube factory in China, and they brand the tubes for everybody who wants it, with any brand whatsoever. So the black beauty, golden treasure, green dragon, Valve Art, and very many more fantasy names, they all come from the same factory outlet, called SHUGUANG. Since many Chinese tubes are now better than there reputation, they are here under preferred brands.

Number4:
Electro Harmonix - Sovtek - Svetlana S-logo. All the same tubes, just another jacket. You can take the lowest priced, Electro Harmonix. That is because the more expensive brands, are not better specified, no longer life, and no longer guarantee. Electro Harmonix is a reasonable tube for a reasonable price.
From below here, personally I would not buy those.

Number5:
New Sensor owns the GOLDEN LION brand now, and like all tubes from them, they come from the same factory, called REFLEKTOR. All recent production Reflektor tubes show random vacuum problems, more than any other tube brand I know. NOS Reflektor is generally good quality, but not as perfect as Svetlana. However new production Reflektor, I find disappointing. Vacuum can get lost, just by stocking unused tubes, grid to cathode shorts develop after shipment, and parameters are quite variable in general. I even had tubes which were mounted in the socket with one pin rotated. Which indicates they are tested before socketing but not after.

GOLDEN LION seem identical construction as ELECTRO HARMONIX, and from selling them, I quickly learned, they show the same random problems as any other brand from REFLEKTOR.

Since the extreme price difference is not justified by the brand name only, they seem too expensive to me. So they are ranked quite low at this list, because of bad price-performance ratio.

The rest - I do not number it from here.
JJ tubes. I do not want to be the big complainer, but I am no fan from JJ tubes, because O once bought some variation of JJ tubes. They began to drift already on the tube tester. I don't know what caused that, and I sold the lot quickly on Ebay. Even mentioning the problem, but it seemed not to be a problem for selling them.

Fullmusic. I had many tubes from Fullmusic, which was actually quite a while ago. They seemed not adequately burned in. Test data on the boxes was not accurate at all, and I had quite gas problems.

Tesla KT88. I can not speak here for older production, NOS tubes. I had many new production KT88 when the factory in Vrusovic still existed, but defect rate was terrible. What worried me even more, they used the old tubes to recycle the pins. (so the 'pearls' which are piece parts they buy from vendors - that looks like a glass pearl with the tube pin coming out).

EAT KT88. I have to say I know little about them. What I do know, the production tools from Tesla (above) are now in use by KR, who builds the EAT tubes. The price of those is unusual high. So given their performance is good, they still have a poor price / quality ratio to my opinion.

[FullRangeMan]

This is interesting as which KT88 do not buy:
(Jac Music)
What is a good new made KT88 to use for Guitar?
Probably EHX. They are low cost and these amplifiers abuse the tubes anyway. So play them as long as they last, and then replace them. Besides EHX doesn't take it so exactly with specifications and tube curves, and many people like the extra distortion resulting from this.

[Steve]

Finally got the Chinese Penta (Shuguang) tube settled down as it was so thin sounding compared to the others.
SED was next thinnest. Anyway, the Penta, sounds quite excellent.

But the switches are necessary to be able to use the Winged C, JJ, Shuguang, even the SED.
Tremendous tonal balance, tonality, deep, wide open sound stage, transparency, dynamics, just live/authentic
sounding. The experiment allows nearly all the output tubes I have stored away to be used if I want.
Kinda thought the money on some tubes was wasted, but not now.

cheers

steve